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Old 12-01-2014, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,793 posts, read 10,227,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
KJV Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

NAB Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.

LOL.

How are you going to present a word of the New Testament in that View?


Jesus wasn't speaking to Jews, he was speaking to some deceived who sat in seats of authority, PAUL WAS AND IS A PHARISEE.

Tens of thousands of Jews believed and all became zealous to keep the Torah, but if what you say is correct, then take all the Jews in the New Testament out of the picture and tell me what you have left.

Paul said himself,'' I AM A PHARISEE.''

Paul proved that he continued keeping the Torah and it was Jews in Judaism who were the first fathers, but how can this be when they are all given over?

You can't have both, you can't condemn a whole people and choose a few that you did not condemn.


The Jews are the only people who have the promise that God will come and turn unrighteousness from them because of the promises given to their fathers.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:01 PM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,539,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
The Jews are the only people who have the promise that God will come and turn unrighteousness from them because of the promises given to their fathers.
Perhaps the Hebrews, yes, but not the "Jews".. it's not a matter of mere semantics to
point this out, especially if one is going to compare today's "jews" with the ancient
Hebrews, or even with Israelites, or Judeans, for that matter.
http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,793 posts, read 10,227,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
Perhaps the Hebrews, yes, but not the "Jews".. it's not a matter of mere semantics to
point this out, especially if one is going to compare today's "jews" with the ancient
Hebrews, or even with Israelites, or Judeans, for that matter.
http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm

Who is talking about the Hebrews?

When Paul said that they were beloved for the fathers, he was speaking of Judah, and it is Judah that God comes punishing the entire world.

God brings vengeance against any nation, people or tongue who has even opened their eyes upon Judah, the prophets are absolutely filled with God's vengeance in the last days when he comes to judge every nation for what they have done to Judah, and he doesn't say this about any other people, and neither does Paul.

Who else has been punished for nothing more than Keeping God's commandments as they were demanded to keep?

You can't put the church or Christians or anyone else in the shoes of these Jews because it was the Christians who has persecuted Israel for 2000 years, and we persecuted them for nothing more than their obedience to the commandments of God, something that gentiles were not willing to go all the way to death.

But the Jews WERE willing, and God is bringing vengeance because it is simply what the whole world deserves for what we have done.





No other people are like the people of God, and no other people are beloved for the sake of the fathers, no other people are just going to have unrighteousness torn away from them like the Jews, and God comes to the tents of Judah FIRST, and the feeblest among them will be as David, and the house of David will be as God, like the angel of the Lord who stands before the throne.



Look what God says, and this is just Joel.


Joel 3


For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink

Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.
Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of ****tim.



Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.


Those who will not serve Judah will be punished.
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:27 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,490,383 times
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I don't know what happened to the steering wheel on this thread, but let me observe (re my post on Page 1) that this event is recorded in the Talmud, is unlikely to be actually true and is merely related to the destruction of the temple, which has a number of prophecies by various rabbis or priests. I will not speculate on the purpose. True or not, it is really nothing to do with Jesus, although the Christians apologists will fall over themselves to try to prove some kind of link to 'prove' something or other.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 232,805 times
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Default God didn't like Jewish sacrifices.

Here is another interpretation. First, assume the following about Jesus. Jesus was God, not the son of God. Jews are not responsible for the death of Jesus. Jesus was not crucified; a Roman soldier beat him to death, Jesus did not sacrifice to save humankind; he died because of he was in Satan's world.

Much of the disagreement between Jesus and his Jewish followers had to do with Jewish laws and their interpretation. Some of that discussion was about the necessity of Jewish sacrifices as atonement for sins. After Jesus (God) was murdered, God abandoned sacrifices in the Jewish temple. The Lord never really approved of animal sacrifices; He allowed them because Jews wanted to adopt the pagan practice.
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:18 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,843,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
KJV Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

NAB Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.
Hmmm, out of context?....
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:19 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,843,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
KJV Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

NAB Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.
Where is the Tanakh reference?...
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:57 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,490,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
Here is another interpretation. First, assume the following about Jesus. Jesus was God, not the son of God. Jews are not responsible for the death of Jesus. Jesus was not crucified; a Roman soldier beat him to death, Jesus did not sacrifice to save humankind;
If one is going to depart from the story that much, why take any of it at all. In fact it is pointless. Crucifixion is the one thing that I would consider indisputable fact. But if it was done by the Romans and the Sanhedrin (if they were actually involved at all) were acting as Roman provincial administration and the Romans, not the Jews were responsible, then you don't need to invent a Roman soldier beating Jesus to death.

Quote:
Much of the disagreement between Jesus and his Jewish followers had to do with Jewish laws and their interpretation. Some of that discussion was about the necessity of Jewish sacrifices as atonement for sins. After Jesus (God) was murdered, God abandoned sacrifices in the Jewish temple. The Lord never really approved of animal sacrifices; He allowed them because Jews wanted to adopt the pagan practice.
Sorry. That does not wash. God set up the whole Jewish thing specifically to set them apart from pagans. Heck, he even had Noah take clean animals aboard the ark so as to have something to sacrifice to God as soon as they came out. God, wanted animal sacrifice. Not the Jews' preference that God had to put up with. I agree that the Christians disagreed with the Jews about the need for temple sacrifice for atonement of sins or any other reason. But there is only Christian disinclination to be subject to Jewish law (which is what Paulinism was all about) as a reason. The other reasons why they shouldn't do it were all spurious.

You can spare yourself the trouble, by the way, of pointing out that jesus said so. What Jesus 'said' was invented by Greek Paulinist Christians putting their likes (gentiles), dislikes (Jews) opinions (Mosaic law sucks) and preferences in the mouth of their fictional Jesus.

P.s " he died because of he was in Satan's world." I have never understood this idea that God is powerless in Satan's world, when the Bible (and modern Christian faith) makes it clear that God can do whatever He likes. The only reason he lets Satan get his way is because it suits him to do so. He allowed Satan to encompass Jesus' death because that was part of the plan. The gospels even make it clear that Jesus prayed to God (thus the assumption that he WAS God rather than the Son of God falls flat) to be excused crucifixion, if possible. God says No. Jesus even says that God could have sent a cohort of angels to rescue him if that had been his wish; he didn't.

The message is clear; this was only allowed to happen as part of the Plan. While it is feasible to say that Satan operated in our world so much that God had to Use him to wangle a solution makes some sense (though not a lot - but then, not much of the Bible does) but to suggest that God would have rescued himself but was unable to prevail against Satan surely will not wash.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-03-2014 at 04:10 AM..
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:57 PM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,539,141 times
Reputation: 5664
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I don't know what happened to the steering wheel on this thread, but let me observe (re my post on Page 1) that this event is recorded in the Talmud, is unlikely to be actually true and is merely related to the destruction of the temple, which has a number of prophecies by various rabbis or priests. I will not speculate on the purpose. True or not, it is really nothing to do with Jesus, although the Christians apologists will fall over themselves to try to prove some kind of link to 'prove' something or other.
this is a patently ludicrous thing to say. your ability to reason is quite handicapped
by your anti-Christian bias. The passages were written by Jewish sages in both Talmuds
and you're over here saying that it's related to the destruction of the temple. Sorry,
guy, but I think the Talmud writers knew how to distinuguish between 40 years
before the temple was destroyed and 70 a.d. You also don't know anything about
prophecy or the nature of what Christ did as a sacrifice to the Father, because it
has everything to do with Jesus that these events ocurred.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 232,805 times
Reputation: 41
I appears my posting was misunderstood. I understand why. I propose ideas that conflict with Christian theology, etc. As for the Roman soldier beating Jesus to death, I saw that in a dream. Then I researched the crucifixion. Apparently, there is no documented evidence for the event, just historical opinions based on rumors.

So, assuming Jesus was God, and not His son, and God didn't sacrifice himself to save humankind, then what we have is a horrible murder. That of course doesn't sell bibles, it's not adventuresome enough. It is probable best that I not post on this forum again, my ideas are too controversial.
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