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Old 03-09-2013, 04:50 PM
 
874 posts, read 633,995 times
Reputation: 166

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsweeting View Post
As an atheist I don't believe that Jesus will come back ever but if he does then I will be the first in line to ask my questions to him. Why wouldn't he take my questions because I'm really interested in this and if you give me good answers you might convert me.
I guess the most probable answer will be that he will only show himself to a few and that he is not interested to answer any questions. Right??? Anyway, here are my questions.

1. 70% on this earth are not Christians and they don't even believe in you. Even within Christianity which is counted as one religion of these 10,000 religions there are thousands of views about you(Jesus). Basically, Jehovah Witness and the Mormons have very little in common to Lutherans for example. Please explain which one is not correct or correct and why. Give me specific answers where they are wrong and if they are wrong......did they make it up.

2. These other non-christian religions are a little over 10,000 according to studies. Among these thousands of religions there are 2,600 different Gods including your father(God). Are the other 2,599 Gods all false because they have different scriptures, holy figures and history than you. You (Jesus) are not even mentioned in their holy books. All these non-christian religions are as sure about their religion as Christians are about theirs. These other religions can write thousands of pages that their religion is correct and argue for their scripture, holy figures, holy books as Christians can. Please explain how they all came about. Are the other 9,999 religions all deluded but Christians are not? Be specific now...

3. Jesus, I have gathered many scientists from all around the world and we have thousands of scientific evidence that creationism is not correct. We have skulls from neanderthals, Homo habilis, Homo erectus etc. Now give me your feedback and I want to hear you debunk all these theories. Please be very specific..after all you are the only one who can answer this.

4. Homo sapiens are about 250,000 years old and are people created thru evolution from older species. Please debunk this and tell me exactly what year and how exactly the first human came to earth. Did your father just snap his fingers and then we had human beings? Be specific please.

5. Which languages do you understand by the way. English, German, French? Can I test you in the three languages I know?

6. How old is the earth and when we have found evidence that it is around 4,5 billion years old is that totally rubbish. What year was the earth created..be very specific now...

7. According to scientist there are 170 Billion Galaxies in the know Universe. In just one of these 170 billion, the Andromeda galaxy, there are 1 trillion stars. Please give me the exact number of galaxies down to the last one. How far off are the scientists when they say 170 billion. They say that the Andromeda galaxy has 1 trillion stars. How many exactly does it have..Give me the exact number. I just want to know exactly how close they were when they said 1 trillion stars in just one galaxy.

8. If Adam & Eve were of one particular human race..How can we have different ones (Asian, Caucasian, Native people, Africans etc.) if not thru evolution. Please be specific. Please debunk the scientist that we have different Humans races because of evolution. I'm really looking forward for your answer....

9. Should I take the bible literally. If you say yes then I have hundreds of questions for you but i will not list them here. If you say no then please be really specific and tell me which ones I should not take literally and which I should take literally. Also tell me why I should not take some of them literally. Were they made up? Be really specific now.....

10. Who exactly was Zeus? Was he all made up and why didn't people believe in you at this time?

11. According to scientist there are 17 billion planets just in our galaxy (the milky way) which are at about the same distance from a sun(star) as we on planet earth are from our sun(star). This distance from a sun makes it possible to have life on these 17 billion planets..How many of these 17 billion planets just in our galaxy not counting the other 170 billion galaxies have life on them?
If you say that we are the only ones then why create 17 billion planets in just one of galaxy. Are there life in any of the other 170 Billion galaxies?

12 Many people have said that they have spoken to you or your father(God). Are all of them correct..If not why have some done it and some haven't. Why did you or your father decide to just speak to some but not others. Where the people how thought they spoke to you deluded? Be specific....

13. If you will only show yourself to a chosen few when you return why just them and who exactly are these people? Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Catholic, Lutherans?

14, Thousands of different groups have predicted your return on a specific dates but what they all have in common is that they have all been wrong. As an example I think that Jehovah's Witness have predicted it at least 25 times. Were they all deluded or were there any truth in their predictions that you would return on the date they have stated? It is not just Jehovah's Witness how has predicted this but many others but of course they have all been wrong..

If you Jesus can't answer these questions can you ask your father...I have many more questions for you but I guess you will say that you will only show yourself to a chosen few and are not interested to answer anything..Am i correct on this point....
The tone of your post seems to be sarcastic and hostile, so I doubt that you are actually searching for answers to your questions. I've never understood why atheists are so angry about others religious beliefs. I cannot speak for Jesus, but I would like to address some of your questions. My answers to you are my own opinion regarding what I have read and learned over the years. My reference book is the King James version (KJV) of the Holy Bible with its two divisions of the Old Testament (OT) and the New Testament (NT).

In order to have any discussion, there must be clarity regarding some basic assumptions. These are mine (this is where I'm coming from):

God, Jesus, and organized religion are not the same thing. Organized religion is a man-made entity. It is estimated that there are roughly 40,000 different Christian denominations. In each case, a human or group of humans took the Bible and interpreted it as they believed was correct and started a religion. These religions are based on one verse here and one verse there from the Bible, in many cases. Some just made up stuff as they went along. Sadly, many organized religions are about money and power and control. That is the human element.

Regarding your questions:

1. Christianity is based only on accepting the Christ [messiah, deliverer, savior], Jesus, as the son of God, and in doing so, accepting the God, LORD, as the spiritual head and the Creator. That's it. Everything else is window dressing and can't be blamed on God or Jesus. Christianity is only one pathway to God - not the only pathway to God.

2. Are there 2600 different Gods? Or is there just one God called by 2600 different names? I don't know because I am not familiar with these religions. I am slightly familiar with the "Great Spirit", God of at least some of the Native American Indians. That God does not seem to be different from the God of the Bible. The OT of the Bible does speak of false gods. It even names some of them, so some may exist. However, why would God not reach out to people that He created using prophets and messengers of their own likeness and speaking their own language?

3. Creationism as it is commonly taught is incorrect. The Bible is very clear about creation, if you read it correctly. There is no conflict with the Bible and Science (for the most part), if you read the Bible correctly instead of taking the corrupted version that is taught. Genesis Chapter 1 is a short read. Read it for what IT says and not what you have heard. It is very clear that creation happened over great lenghts of time and that the "evolution" of mankind is not precluded from being true.

4. See number 3.

5. Gimme a break!

6. see number 3.

7. And this is a bone of contention, why?

8. Here again is the misconception of creation. Adam and Eve were not part of creation. Adam and Eve came after creation was finished. The OT of the Bible focuses only on the Jews and their relationship with the God, LORD. It is the history of that relationship and that relationship only. The account of the OT is set in the geographical area we now call Israel and the surrounding area. The rest of the world and the other people of creation are not any part of that account. The common mistake about the Bible is that it is an account of the whole planet and all the countries and races that we know today. It is not. It is an account limited in its geographical area and limited to the people in that geographical area. The entire rest of the planet has nothing to do with this account and is not included. The entire planet is included in Genesis Chapter 1. After that, the account is totally limited to the evolution of the Jewish nation and their relationship with God. Adam and Eve had the physical characteristics of the Jews and were the foundation pair for the Jewish nation only. This genealogy is clearly outlined in the OT. The misconception is the same as taking the account of the Alamo and saying it was planet-wide or the account of the USA War of 1812 and saying it was planet-wide. The OT is the account of the Jewish nation in their native geographical location only.

9. Parts of the Bible are literal and others are not. Before scribes (writers, historians) came along, the OT was an oral history passed down from generation to generation. There are many allegories in the Bible. Which is which is not always known. The point of the Bible is to be a spiritual guide. Whatever is written, whether actual or allegory, has a spiritual message. It is the message that is important. We all know the story of The boy who cried, "wolf." This was an allegory that taught a lesson. It is quite feasible that this could have happened, but if one doesn't "get" the message, then he/she missed the whole point. It doesn't matter whether or not this ever happened, or how old the boy was, or what he looked like, etc. What matters is the underlying message. The purpose of the Bible is to get the message.

10. I defer to Wikipedia

11. I defer to science. I don't see any reason why there would not be life elsewhere.

12. Here I can only speak for myself. I speak to God on a regular basis. He communes with my soul. I don't doubt that millions of people speak to God. I do not doubt that God communes with others as he communes with me. One must build a personal relationship with God, as one builds a friendship. One must find his/her path to God. For me, it didn't just happen. I searched out God and I found my path.

13. I have no reason to believe that Jesus will show Himself only to a chosen few. Since Jesus is a pathway to God, I think he will show himself to those that follow that pathway, but I don't have any reason to belive that those will be the only ones.

14. Again, you are referencing religion, not Bible. These were humans making predictions. Neither God nor Jesus had anything to do with this.

If you are earnestly seaking answers about spiritual matters, seek out God and ask Him. You might be pleasantly surprised at the information you get. Read the book. Everybody wants to debate, but nobody wants to read the book first. Is it common for people to debate, challenge, doubt the content/validity/merit of a book they have not read, a song they have not heard, or a movie they have not seen? I really don't think so - until it comes to the Bible. Then, everyone is content with what they have heard, or been told, or read somewhere else. There are way too many preconceived notions out there and too many human fingerprints gumming up the text.
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:15 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,915,755 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsweeting View Post
As an atheist I don't believe that Jesus will come back ever but if he does then I will be the first in line to ask my questions to him. Why wouldn't he take my questions because I'm really interested in this and if you give me good answers you might convert me.
I guess the most probable answer will be that he will only show himself to a few and that he is not interested to answer any questions. Right??? Anyway, here are my questions.

1. 70% on this earth are not Christians and they don't even believe in you. Even within Christianity which is counted as one religion of these 10,000 religions there are thousands of views about you(Jesus). Basically, Jehovah Witness and the Mormons have very little in common to Lutherans for example. Please explain which one is not correct or correct and why. Give me specific answers where they are wrong and if they are wrong......did they make it up.

2. These other non-christian religions are a little over 10,000 according to studies. Among these thousands of religions there are 2,600 different Gods including your father(God). Are the other 2,599 Gods all false because they have different scriptures, holy figures and history than you. You (Jesus) are not even mentioned in their holy books. All these non-christian religions are as sure about their religion as Christians are about theirs. These other religions can write thousands of pages that their religion is correct and argue for their scripture, holy figures, holy books as Christians can. Please explain how they all came about. Are the other 9,999 religions all deluded but Christians are not? Be specific now...

3. Jesus, I have gathered many scientists from all around the world and we have thousands of scientific evidence that creationism is not correct. We have skulls from neanderthals, Homo habilis, Homo erectus etc. Now give me your feedback and I want to hear you debunk all these theories. Please be very specific..after all you are the only one who can answer this.

4. Homo sapiens are about 250,000 years old and are people created thru evolution from older species. Please debunk this and tell me exactly what year and how exactly the first human came to earth. Did your father just snap his fingers and then we had human beings? Be specific please.

5. Which languages do you understand by the way. English, German, French? Can I test you in the three languages I know?

6. How old is the earth and when we have found evidence that it is around 4,5 billion years old is that totally rubbish. What year was the earth created..be very specific now...

7. According to scientist there are 170 Billion Galaxies in the know Universe. In just one of these 170 billion, the Andromeda galaxy, there are 1 trillion stars. Please give me the exact number of galaxies down to the last one. How far off are the scientists when they say 170 billion. They say that the Andromeda galaxy has 1 trillion stars. How many exactly does it have..Give me the exact number. I just want to know exactly how close they were when they said 1 trillion stars in just one galaxy.

8. If Adam & Eve were of one particular human race..How can we have different ones (Asian, Caucasian, Native people, Africans etc.) if not thru evolution. Please be specific. Please debunk the scientist that we have different Humans races because of evolution. I'm really looking forward for your answer....

9. Should I take the bible literally. If you say yes then I have hundreds of questions for you but i will not list them here. If you say no then please be really specific and tell me which ones I should not take literally and which I should take literally. Also tell me why I should not take some of them literally. Were they made up? Be really specific now.....

10. Who exactly was Zeus? Was he all made up and why didn't people believe in you at this time?

11. According to scientist there are 17 billion planets just in our galaxy (the milky way) which are at about the same distance from a sun(star) as we on planet earth are from our sun(star). This distance from a sun makes it possible to have life on these 17 billion planets..How many of these 17 billion planets just in our galaxy not counting the other 170 billion galaxies have life on them?
If you say that we are the only ones then why create 17 billion planets in just one of galaxy. Are there life in any of the other 170 Billion galaxies?

12 Many people have said that they have spoken to you or your father(God). Are all of them correct..If not why have some done it and some haven't. Why did you or your father decide to just speak to some but not others. Where the people how thought they spoke to you deluded? Be specific....

13. If you will only show yourself to a chosen few when you return why just them and who exactly are these people? Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Catholic, Lutherans?

14, Thousands of different groups have predicted your return on a specific dates but what they all have in common is that they have all been wrong. As an example I think that Jehovah's Witness have predicted it at least 25 times. Were they all deluded or were there any truth in their predictions that you would return on the date they have stated? It is not just Jehovah's Witness how has predicted this but many others but of course they have all been wrong..

If you Jesus can't answer these questions can you ask your father...I have many more questions for you but I guess you will say that you will only show yourself to a chosen few and are not interested to answer anything..Am i correct on this point....
He may answer you with questions. That's what Rabbis did back then.
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,887,513 times
Reputation: 3767
Default Typical!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I thought you were an atheist. Jesus doesn't exist in your world, right?
So.. even when one of us tries to ask an honest set of questions, you then insult him and claim he's not being serious? What is the acceptable approach then? To fall, whimpering, to one's knees and plead with Jesus to accept Him into your life? With nary a single question to assert even a few simple things?

I thought so.

Honest, intelligent and thoughtful inquisitiveness has NO PLACE in the Christian religion. Or, put another way.... to try to engage the Christian mind in conversation absent hostile Christian denialism? Ahnnnddd... the answer is....

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
It's futile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsweeting View Post
Correct..I'm a convinced atheist....But if he returns and is answering these questions he has shown me that I'm 100% wrong....I have changed my mind on different arguments before...
Seems to me you have been more than honest, forthright and accommodating here, johnsweeting. I'd say the loyal opposition here has no effective way of deaing with your approach, and so they move to their predictable Fire For Effect position.

Anyhow, it wasn't a question to the Christians here, but rather to their leader, so they should butt out and let Jesus come on down and post a nice logical response right here on C-D. To prove it's Him, the post would glisten in gold, and vibrate the reader's laptop case, etc. etc. Oh, and have some choirs of angels sing a nice intro theme song. You know: something indisputable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You believe Jesus may return. Return from where?
WTF? This is always your guys' claim, not john's. You tell us where He's inbound from! John's simply asking a rather forthright set of questions of an entity you assure us is absolutely "out there". Why, pray tell, are you trying to throw this....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71HZSUXb6yL.jpg

...into the works? Afraid no-one's "home", hmmm???

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You sure went to a lot of trouble to question one who doesn't exist. Methinks you're not quite sure. .
Again, it's obvious to all of us readers that john put a lot of thought and honest questions into his post. It's your response that is downright snide and combative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Ha-ha. Good one. Man still has hope in him, as he even considers a deity.

Here's few things you missed, friend.

1. Jesus never left you. Or anyone else. It is always with us. We simply do not see it. The way YOU expect it to be seen. But then isn't he most blind, than one who does not WANT to see?

2. Here's real answer to your question. Say, it goes as you have it imagined, and you see Jesus come back. You know what will happen? In a heartbeat, will you understand compete futility of all of your so called "questions", or so called "science", as you will have one and only proof needed - Jesus itself - right there. Oh, the doubtful Thomas..
Wait now.... "Doubting Thomases"? Blah blah blah. Insult, insult, insult! Yup! So again, you don't want anyone to ask any honest questions, am I right? You say there's no need to ask such questions, just wait for that inevitable day (which, as someone noted, has always been predicably WRONG) and your doubts will be cleared up.

In the meantime, you want us to go along with something which, for us of a certain level of inquisitiveness, curiosity and logic, simply does not RESONATE? (Do look it up, why don't you?). Why on earth would we do that? Because you are frightened right out of your ever-living sox to ever question the brainwashing you have received since your youth? Hmmm.... seems sort of brainless to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
My guess is that he won't be alive when Jesus comes back....................and neither will anybody else who ever exists on this planet.
Explain please. Illogical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr View Post
The tone of your post seems to be sarcastic and hostile, so I doubt that you are actually searching for answers to your questions. I've never understood why atheists are so angry about others religious beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
edited for brevity, but I can see, Ella, that you did put a lot of thought into your answers. I will say, however, that you also seem to be suffering from some typical preconceived Christian ideas, such has I've highlighted in blue above. Too bad about that, but it is common for us atheists to regularly see such distain from Christians. I will repeat that johnsweeting here simply asked some very rational quesitons.
If you are earnestly seaking answers about spiritual matters, seek out God and ask Him.

Quote:
Hmmm... isn't that exactly what he just did? Just because he also put it in a C-D post does not automatically disqualify, does it? I mean, c'mon now, Ella. Give the man a chance! Let Jesus answer these simple questions. You will also note, of course, that these questions are a tad bit tricky for Christians, when viewed logically. Agreed? But if not, why not?
You might be pleasantly surprised at the information you get. Read the book. Everybody wants to debate, but nobody wants to read the book first.

Quote:
Question: I have read the bible, Ella. I used to be a devout Christian lad, up until when I started logically questioning it @ ≈ 18 yrs or so, finally crossing it off the list of logical possibilities when I was ≈ 27.

By comparison, have you read a good introductory biology text? Tell me the honest truth! Or how about a basic text on modern astronomy, or physics? Yes or No?

Because it always appalls me that there are folks out there willing to stand up on their hind legs and go for the throats of us supposedly hostile and sarcastic atheists (by your own comment above, btw...), but who do not know didly-squat-nada about a topic they choose to so fervently deny.

So again, your qualifications to comment about Evolution, the age of this earth, the DNA-proven lineage of all hominids on this planet, and so on? Me? I happen to have several postgrad degrees in the biological sciences, I used teach the stuff to open-mined kids, and I'm also an engineer. With over 30 years as a paid professional in various versions of these specialties. Yikes: all that inarguable logic, huh? So, I'd say that I have the necessary credentials to make the claims I make here. And you, Ella?
Is it common for people to debate, challenge, doubt the content/validity/merit of a book they have not read, a song they have not heard, or a movie they have not seen? I really don't think so - until it comes to the Bible. Then, everyone is content with what they have heard, or been told, or read somewhere else. There are way too many preconceived notions out there and too many human fingerprints gumming up the text.
Nicely and cleverly "worded up", Ella. But as for preconceived ideas, do you suppose that devout Christians might have a few of those themselves? Just possibly? I mean, what you've just claimed here in order to widely disqualify atheists, is rather more easily applied to the usual Christian response, wouldn't you agree? Be honest with me now! I'm depending on you for that!

And again, which alternate idea books have you studied? If so, which proofs of, say, Evolution or a truly ancient earth have you personally checked out with an open mind?

Are you a regular reader of any credentialed journal publications in the natural sciences? Such as, perhaps Scientific American or the journal publication "Nature"? Or do you assiduously and purposefully avoid those? I know many (in fact, all..) of my Christian friends who will not "expose" themselves to such slanderous and deceitful lies.. ()

(Why yes, I do have many of them, and we openly discuss these very interesting issues without rancor. That type of combative response seems to be reserved for C-D posts!)

Last edited by rifleman; 03-09-2013 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,074,720 times
Reputation: 14069
If Jesus existed and did indeed come back and I got to ask him a question, I think it would be: "Are you at all embarrassed about what has been said and done in your name?"
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:25 AM
 
874 posts, read 633,995 times
Reputation: 166
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
The tone of your post seems to be sarcastic and hostile, so I doubt that you are actually searching for answers to your questions. I've never understood why atheists are so angry about others religious beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
edited for brevity, but I can see, Ella, that you did put a lot of thought into your answers. I will say, however, that you also seem to be suffering from some typical preconceived Christian ideas, such has I've highlighted in blue above. Too bad about that, but it is common for us atheists to regularly see such distain from Christians. I will repeat that johnsweeting here simply asked some very rational quesitons.


I have no disdain for atheists. I have no problem discussing different ideas. While I am a Christian, I am far from typical. I do have "Christian ideas" but not based on religion, which was a major point of my post.

If I mis-judged johnsweeting's tone, I apologize. This is a Religion and Spirituality forum. What would one expect to find here? As much as atheists are battered by theists, theists are equally battered by atheists. So, I suppose I am scrutinizing posts for such indications, especially in this forum. IMO, the original post was worded in such as way as not to encourage discussion - unless someone thinks Jesus is a subscriber. It seems to me that if one wants to make the points the original post made, that they could have been addressed in general to those of us on earth.

Rifleman said (in answer to another poster)
"Anyhow, it wasn't a question to the Christians here, but rather to their leader, so they should butt out and let Jesus come on down and post a nice logical response right here on C-D. To prove it's Him, the post would glisten in gold, and vibrate the reader's laptop case, etc. etc. Oh, and have some choirs of angels sing a nice intro theme song. You know: something indisputable. "

Yep. That sounds sarcastic and hostile. <grin>

Why post on a human forum if all you want is the opinion of a diety that you don't even believe in?
Were we supposed to read and not respond?

I'm not angry. I decided to respond and I truly tried to give answers that were my honest opinion.
Again, I apologize if I mis-read the tone.

================
Ella said:
"If you are earnestly seaking answers about spiritual matters, seek out God and ask Him."


Quote:
Hmmm... isn't that exactly what he just did? Just because he also put it in a C-D post does not automatically disqualify, does it? I mean, c'mon now, Ella. Give the man a chance! Let Jesus answer these simple questions. You will also note, of course, that these questions are a tad bit tricky for Christians, when viewed logically. Agreed? But if not, why not?
OK. my statement above is a bit snippy. sorry.

I don't think the questions are a tad tricky for Christians (or anybody else). I stated plainly that I don't have a problem with science or with the Bible. Most everything found by science is in line with the Bible. My problems with science are (a) man came from monkeys and (b) one single cell creature flopped out of the muck and morphed into a human being. Science is ever-evolving and there are a lot of mysteries to be unraveled. I was a big fan of Carl Sagan, a self- proclaimed atheist. I learned a lot from him and others like him.
===========
Ella said:
You might be pleasantly surprised at the information you get. Read the book. Everybody wants to debate, but nobody wants to read the book first.

Ok. That was a bit snippy, part deux.
Quote:
Question: I have read the bible, Ella. I used to be a devout Christian lad, up until when I started logically questioning it @ ≈ 18 yrs or so, finally crossing it off the list of logical possibilities when I was ≈ 27.


You said you were a devout Christian and you have read the Bible. Did you learn what you believed at the time from church or from the Bible? Truly, I'm not trying to be snippy here. However, with some 40,000 different Christian denominations, church teachings can skew what we read in the Bible. I read [now] (and read [in the past]) without the doctrine or dogma of any denomination. I do seem to read the text differently than those programmed by doctrine.


By comparison, have you read a good introductory biology text? Tell me the honest truth! Or how about a basic text on modern astronomy, or physics? Yes or No?

Because it always appalls me that there are folks out there willing to stand up on their hind legs and go for the throats of us supposedly hostile and sarcastic atheists (by your own comment above, btw...), but who do not know didly-squat-nada about a topic they choose to so fervently deny.

So again, your qualifications to comment about Evolution, the age of this earth, the DNA-proven lineage of all hominids on this planet, and so on? Me? I happen to have several postgrad degrees in the biological sciences, I used teach the stuff to open-mined kids, and I'm also an engineer. With over 30 years as a paid professional in various versions of these specialties. Yikes: all that inarguable logic, huh? So, I'd say that I have the necessary credentials to make the claims I make here. And you, Ella?


Now, who is being snippy?
Well, I hold a PhD in Education. I teach for a university. I love biology and specifically genetics. I've read and studied all manner of science and theories. Does that make me good enough for you? <grin>
Interestingly, you commented on my two snippy statements, but not on the answers to my questions.
==========
Ella said:
"Is it common for people to debate, challenge, doubt the content/validity/merit of a book they have not read, a song they have not heard, or a movie they have not seen? I really don't think so - until it comes to the Bible. Then, everyone is content with what they have heard, or been told, or read somewhere else. There are way too many preconceived notions out there and too many human fingerprints gumming up the text."
Rifleman said"
" Nicely and cleverly "worded up", Ella."
Thanks!
Rifleman said:
"But as for preconceived ideas, do you suppose that devout Christians might have a few of those themselves? Just possibly? I mean, what you've just claimed here in order to widely disqualify atheists, is rather more easily applied to the usual Christian response, wouldn't you agree? Be honest with me now! I'm depending on you for that!

Of course I do. That was the point I was making.

Ella said: There are way too many preconceived notions out there and too many human fingerprints gumming up the text."

I was talking about the Bible and the Christian dogma and doctrine. Christians, like most other religions I'm sure, are indoctrinated from the cradle with the beliefs of that particular denomination. Since so many denominations are teaching so many different things -some not found anywhere in the Bible and some twisted until they are unrecognizable - it is hard for a person then to read the Bible and not insert what they believe is true, whether or not the text supports it. It is hard to read the text of the Bible and draw any conclusion other than what one was taught as a child.

I wasn't trying to disqualify atheists. Sorry, I don't know what I said to make you think that. I do feel that whatever atheist (or Christian or anyone else) principle/construct/opinion etc one puts forth should not be based on the doctrine or dogma of any denomination. To blame God for man's teachings is not right or fair. Whether one believes in God or not, is not the point. The point is to attribute ideas properly.

It is like attributing the theory of evolution to John Scopes and then arguing that evolution could not possibly be true because Scopes was only a school teacher and did not have the background or intelligence to have conceived such a theory. While it may be true that that evolution theory is false and while it may be true that Scopes did not have the background to have conceived the theory, it doesn't make the original statement true or valid as an argument.

Often, in a discussion about God or the lack thereof, arguments are based on dogma and doctrine and not on scripture. If there is fault to be found with God or the existence thereof, then base the arguments on that for which God is responsible - not what man has attributed to him.

One that I've heard often (in various forms) is that God can't exist because he died on the cross and why would God do that? Thing is, "God dying on the Cross" is Catholic doctrine, not Bible.

Can we hug and make up now?

Ella
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Old 03-10-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,887,513 times
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Default Thx for listening!

You got it, Mzz Ella. At least you answer honestly, I'll certainly give you that! Unlike, if you were to read them, the rather low-pH postings by, let's say, Vizio (and to think: he/she's in a position, apparently, to be teaching his brand of biases to others. To do their thinking for them in essence) or the "Intransigence-on-Parade" Eusebius... <sigh>

And sadly, so many MANY others, which, frankly, will not or technically, can not... answer a single simple question honestly. Your educational background is indeed impressive and quite unlike the techno-intellectual hoi-polloi here, but they also won't admit it: they are all, apparently, full-on experts in biology, biochemistry, genetics and geology. Every one of them!

But then, if scientifically stumped, they happily cite commentary by their false-phD leaders (The Genesis or Creationist Institute, or whatever it's called now. For instance: "Dr." Kent Hovind and his best friend first created a totally faker but tax-exempt university, and then, by creating a faker Board of Regents (they were the only members ) they co-awarded each other "gen-yoo-whine" phD degrees!

Oh yeah: here it is: worthy of a visit! The Institute for Creation Research, where I just now wandered around and found this classic statement in their scathing & disingenuous review of some research on pigeons:

"And that's exactly what one would expect if pigeons, like all other animals, descended and migrated from Noah's Ark, which landed in the Middle East near the middle of the world's livable land."

Well, Ella, could you and I pick some holes in a literal interpretation of Noah's Ark? Tell us, you folks from the ICR; exactly how many pigeons did Noah house onboard for 18+ months in order that there'd be a viable reproductive population when they were unceremoniously de-cooped onto a fludd-wasted and snow-covered landscape??

A clue for you folks out there in reality-disbeliever land? Look up the typical declining population numbers on all the animals that now create concerns about their possible extinction?

Eg: Cheetahs? We're v. concerned about them now (I sponsor some research on them btw... so I'm not just another id-yut on their plight..) because their total free-ranging population is down to about 10,000. And that's in an relatively ideal ecosytem, with suitable prey in abundance.

So... did Noah have the requisite 12,000 cheetahs on his yacht, along with 12,000 lions, 12,000 hyenas, and so on? And the equally necessary 100,000 or more antelope and/or goats and/or wild sheep? As you understand, prey species? Well of course he did!

Musta been quite the BIG OL' Barge, eh folks? And of course, then we get to consider exactly where he dropped those cheetahs and lions and hyenas and prey species, and so on, into such a perfect ecosystem for them! Typical equatorial African veldt, right? Up there on Mt. Ararat. Yup.

So Dr. Ella, I mean... perhaps you can understand my hesitation to talk nice to the perpetrators of such pathological ineptitudes and lack of information. Yes?

But at least right now, and until about 2017, the good "Dr" Hovind gets to teach his own unique brand of reasoning to his fellow inmates. In a Federal prison (fraud, tax evasion, etc.). They be such lucky cell-mates, huh? Given half a chance now for me to show the rank amateurism at science and technology that resides at The ICR, I do for sure go right for the jugular. After all, prey species are there to be preyed on, non?

Them...

http://michaelkonik.com/wp-content/u...ated-sheep.jpg

Vs: Us...

Leopards in the Twilight Zone | Natural History Magazine

You notice the essential differences in the eyes and the genetics behind their stare? I certainly do.

Yup: I am a bit sarcastic. Ask around and you'll see that's my general modus op. I just can't seem to get away from it, given the target-rich environment that our IDTrs (Intransigent Dogmo-Theists) provide to me!

Have a great day! And keep on asking questions!
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,082 posts, read 14,283,341 times
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Quote:
God, Jesus, and organized religion are not the same thing. Organized religion is a man-made entity.
God, Zeus, Isis, Shiva, Poseidon, Ganesh, etc, are all man-made entities. Thanks to evolution, one of the advantages man has is our bigger brain, since we don't have sharp teeth or claws or a hard outer shell. From the time man was capable of abstact thought and communication, anything he could not explain was attributed to the gods "up there".
Earthquakes? Gods. Aurora Borealis? Gods. Thunder and hailstones and floods were all attributed to angry gods. Maybe if we behave, the gods will be lenient.
The Judeo-Christian god is no different; he just has a bigger fan club.

And before you tell me to read the bible...I used to be a devout Christian. I read it many, many times.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:39 AM
 
518 posts, read 1,002,348 times
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If you're truly an atheist, then why are you so interested in the Rapture?

Jesus may or may not answer your "questions". If you're lucky enough and deserving enough for Him to answer your "questions", His answers should NOT be the reason you "convert" to being a Christian. Doing this requires unwavering faith and belief on your part - not demanding answers from the Almighty to "convince" you to "convert".

I hear this from atheists all the time, and it stuns me everytime I hear someone like you say things like this.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,511 posts, read 37,039,582 times
Reputation: 13978
Of all the beliefs that Christians hold the "rapture" has to be the looniest, although I often wish it were true, but not for the reasons you do..

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:42 PM
 
31 posts, read 27,520 times
Reputation: 20
Jesus is not coming back...
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