Can Meditation Be Bad for You? (Buddha, perspective, religions, science)

[victorianpunk]

Originally Posted by Mattie Jo

1. TM is mantra meditation
2. Most yogic and buddhist groups teach a form of mantra meditation. Either you are repeating a mantra as in Hinduism or counting as in Buddhism
3. Meditation can trigger anxiety and depression as well as depersonalization, etc.
4. You do not have to have mental illness nor do you have to have it in your family in order for meditation to cause any, of these adverse reactions.
5. Those are not the only dangers of meditation that are listed in the articles.
6. I took TM, I also learned meditation from other groups, such as Self-Realization Fellowship and then Buddhism. They are basically all the same. There have been people in all of those groups that suffered as a result of meditation, not as a result of previous existing problems.
7. If you have meditated and have only had positive results, that is good, but to write that there are no dangers is wrong. There is even a book out now titled, The Hidden Dangers of Meditation.

There is a difference between two twenty minute meditation periods broken up by a ten minute malking meditation and a Seshin, which is about a total of four hours of meditation for five days. This article seems to not understand that simply the posture you assume for that long a time could be harmful, even if you're watching television for that long.

Which reminds me of another similiar study that showed that sitting on a long airline flight can be harmful to, because sitting in such a way for long hours is harmful: "Economy-class syndrome" a major health threat

For all we know, this could be just the result of sitting in a certain position for so long.
As for anxiety disorders, as I said, does Dungeons and Dragons make one a nerd or does Dungeons and Dragons simply attract nerds? At the same time, does mediation give one a anxiety disorder or does meditation simply attract people who are trying to use the meditation to overcome anxiety disorder?

Also, there are just as many studies, if not more, that point to the benefits of mediation:
Harvard University Gazette: Meditation found to increase brain size (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/01/23-meditation.html - broken link)

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

does Dungeons and Dragons make on a nerd or does Dungeons and Dragons simply attract nerds? At the same time, does mediation give on a anxiety disorder or does meditation simply attract people who are trying to use the meditation to overcome anxiety disorder?

Very good thinking here!

[chielgirl]

Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka

You watch Oprah <falls off the chair, fractures the elbow>

I have watched her upon occasion as AFN has her in their prime time lineup. Sometimes you get her, baseball, reality shows, war stories and news as choices.
I should just listen to music.

[chielgirl]

Originally Posted by Mattie Jo

1. TM is mantra meditation
2. Most yogic and buddhist groups teach a form of mantra meditation. Either you are repeating a mantra as in Hinduism or counting as in Buddhism
3. Meditation can trigger anxiety and depression as well as depersonalization, etc.
4. You do not have to have mental illness nor do you have to have it in your family in order for meditation to cause any, of these adverse reactions.
5. Those are not the only dangers of meditation that are listed in the articles.
6. I took TM, I also learned meditation from other groups, such as Self-Realization Fellowship and then Buddhism. They are basically all the same. There have been people in all of those groups that suffered as a result of meditation, not as a result of previous existing problems.
7. If you have meditated and have only had positive results, that is good, but to write that there are no dangers is wrong. There is even a book out now titled, The Hidden Dangers of Meditation.

2. Maybe your form of buddhism, but not vipassna. In vipassna, we follow the breath and notice.
We have no mantra, have no need of anything but the breath.
In fact, when I sat with a zen group, we didn't use mantras either.
3. And that is a gross generalization. Breathing can trigger anxiety and depression as well, so can going to work…
How about some statistics?
4. So, meditation is the cause of anxiety and depression as well as depersonalization, etc.? How about some proof other than blogged anecdotal entries.
5. You may just hang out with wigged out people, who didn’t know it and came to this realization when they meditated with you. Where’s the proof of cause and effect?

And I’ve been meditating with a buddhist society for about 15 years (when I live in the states); also with vipassna groups in England and Thailand and now I meditate alone.

I guess I should wait for the psychotic break I’ll probably have.
After all, I’m still waiting for acid flashbacks, what’s one more thing on the list?

[Mattie Jo]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

2. Maybe your form of buddhism, but not vipassna. In vipassna, we follow the breath and notice.
We have no mantra, have no need of anything but the breath.
In fact, when I sat with a zen group, we didn't use mantras either.
3. And that is a gross generalization. Breathing can trigger anxiety and depression as well, so can going to work…
How about some statistics?
4. So, meditation is the cause of anxiety and depression as well as depersonalization, etc.? How about some proof other than blogged anecdotal entries.
5. You may just hang out with wigged out people, who didn’t know it and came to this realization when they meditated with you. Where’s the proof of cause and effect?

And I’ve been meditating with a buddhist society for about 15 years (when I live in the states); also with vipassna groups in England and Thailand and now I meditate alone.

I guess I should wait for the psychotic break I’ll probably have.
After all, I’m still waiting for acid flashbacks, what’s one more thing on the list?

Vipassana is how I meditated in buddhism and in hinduism, just follow the breath. if you use a mantra you let it go; just as i was taught in buddhism.

There are dangers with any type of meditation. In the article meditation related psychosis, it mentions vipassana as well. it is on the blog Down the Crooked Path. The article Meditation Related Psychosis is a doctoral done but Dr. Lois Vanderkooi, PhD. This also contains a list of referrences. It is solely on Buddhist meditation. On the blog there is also an article titled Dangers of Meditaton, and it is full of referrences.

Meditation can certainly cause depression, anxiety, and depersonalization to name just a few.

You wrote: You may just hang out with wigged out people, who didn’t know it and came to this realization when they meditated with you.

Why is it that you resort to insulting me? Did you not also learn loving kindness in your meditation class? Loving kindness far outweighs meditation. And I never hung out with "wigged out" people.

[chielgirl]

Originally Posted by Mattie Jo

Vipassana is how I meditated in buddhism and in hinduism, just follow the breath. if you use a mantra you let it go; just as i was taught in buddhism.

There are dangers with any type of meditation. In the article meditation related psychosis, it mentions vipassana as well. it is on the blog Down the Crooked Path. The article Meditation Related Psychosis is a doctoral done but Dr. Lois Vanderkooi, PhD. This also contains a list of referrences. It is solely on Buddhist meditation. On the blog there is also an article titled Dangers of Meditaton, and it is full of referrences.

Meditation can certainly cause depression, anxiety, and depersonalization to name just a few.

You wrote: You may just hang out with wigged out people, who didn’t know it and came to this realization when they meditated with you.

Why is it that you resort to insulting me? Did you not also learn loving kindness in your meditation class? Loving kindness far outweighs meditation. And I never hung out with "wigged out" people.

There is danger in every.single.thing. that one can do.
Most accidents in the home happen in the bathroom.
Does that mean that the bathroom causes injury? Or does it have to do with the person?

Meditation can certainly cause depression, anxiety, and depersonalization to name just a few.
As can any belief system. So can chemical imbalances and a myriad of other items.
Apparently, since this experience is "rare" - you can honestly say that the vast majority or even nearly all people who practice meditation have no problems and can find great relief.
Interesting how you single out "meditation" as the culprit.

Why is it that you resort to insulting me? Did you not also learn loving kindness in your meditation class? Loving kindness far outweighs meditation. And I never hung out with "wigged out" people.[/quote]
But you're saying that you "know" that depression, anxiety & depersonalization occur in those who have meditated with you.
Because I asked you several questions and you show no peer reviewed studies, simply a few blog entries and a doctoral thesis. It's all anecdotal.
Where are the peer reviewed studies.
Do these studies look at anything other than meditation?

6. I took TM, I also learned meditation from other groups, such as Self-Realization Fellowship and then Buddhism. They are basically all the same. There have been people in all of those groups that suffered as a result of meditation, not as a result of previous existing problems.

Where's the proof? Where are the peer reviewed studies?

What are you really looking for if you've tried to learn meditation with so many groups?
This "concern" doesn't ring true.

[Mattie Jo]

I never once said that people that meditated with me had developed depression, anxiety, or depression. I said that I have known of people that had serious problems in depression and read about such cases. Where did you get this "People that have meditated with me?"

You have not read the blog entries or you would not be asking for proof?

And no one said that it was not dangerous to cross the street or drive a car. What does it bother you that I have not talked about the dangerous of cars? That I am only pinpointing meditation?

Yes, it has to do with the person, and there are ways to know if a person's mind is strong enough to practice meditation, but not always. Why does this topic rile you so much?

Here is what Gopi Krishna said:

.."In fact, one of the reasons why a spontaneous activation of the Serpent Power often ends in mental disorder is the fact that, in addition to a faulty generic heritage or unhealthy organic structure of the body, the excess expenditure of the reproductive excesses can cause ravages in the system which make adaptation to the new activity of the brain impossible...He stated that in order "to have success in yoga one must not only possess unusual mental and physical endowments but must also have all the attributes of saintly character--honesty, chastity, and rectitude..."


Here is one of the many case histories that are found on that website:

"Blackouts, lack of sensory filters, and anxiety attacks. John, age 36, meditated off and on for nine years. During the last 2 years of that time, he was encouraged to do intensives. Now he is living on public funds, having been diagnosed as mentally disabled and incapable of working. He suffers from fainting, blackouts, severe and frequent anxiety attacks, and exhaustion. He feels he no longer has protective barriers for his senses."

Here is what another authority had to say:

Severe anxiety, depression, depersonalization, derealization, panic, and emergence of overwhelming repressed material sometimes occur, especially in people with traumatic backgrounds and longstanding emotional problems (Carrington, 1977; Epstein & Lieff, 1986).

Now the above only singles out certain types of people that can end up with these difficulites, but why don't meditation groups warn people of these dangers? Dr. Margaret Singer, PhD found that these things also occur with those that have never had psychological problems within their family or in themselves.

But are you saying that it is wrong to warn people that there are dangers? Are you saying that you would rather that teachers just tell their students that meditation will bring you only peace?

[Dusty Rhodes]

I suspect that meditation is natures way of allowing us to clear our minds and relax it soothes the human core, for lack of a better word.

Almost everything is capable of an adverse effect, consider water as an example, a necessary ingredient for life itself - drowning. But, because some people drown does not mean I should stop drinking water.

[Mattie Jo]

There is danger in every.single.thing. that one can do.
Most accidents in the home happen in the bathroom.
Does that mean that the bathroom causes injury? Or does it have to do with the person?

This is so true, but we are also warned of the dangers. People that learn to drive are told of the hazzards of driving, and so they learn to be caucious. People that learn to meditate are seldom told of the dangers; instead they are told only of the value of meditation. That is what needs to be changed.

[alanMolstad]

Danger from meditation?....nope, I dont see any. Perhaps maybe if you dont mow the grass for too long because you are meditation?...but in the real world?..nope not really a concern for most normal people.

Now if a person has already a few mental problems then you cant really blame meditation for that.
I mean, standing and walking might cause some people harm, like people with leg or back problems.
But you would be rather foolish to start warning people about standing and walking just because a few of us have problems in that area.