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Quoting from the bible is not evidence, so will you tell us about this overwhelming secular evidence please?
The first-century Roman Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (ca. 56 – ca. 117) who is considered one of the more accurate Historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious "Christians " ("named after Christus" which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. * * * *((Tacitus' remarks have been studied more by modern scholars for information about his own religious attitudes and about the early history of Christianity))
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus AKA Suetonius, (c.71-c.135) Roman scholar and official,chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44 ).
Flavius Josephus,(c.37-c.101) is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”
Julius Africanus (c. 160-c. 240) quotes the historian Thallus who lived in Rome in the first century A.D. ,writes in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, (c.61 AD - c.112 AD), in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) (188-217 C.E.) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover, and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata, was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of his followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
Jewish Records: YESHU: The Talmud Sanhedrin 43a, (Tannaitic period) which dates to the earliest period of composition speaks of the stoning, BETRAYAL, and execution of Jesus on the eve of the Jewish Passover.
There are few sources available, these are a few. And in all honesty, these presented will probably not be good enough.
There will always be someone who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
You're right. You listed many mentionings of Jesus, yet, not one was alive to witness any of it and none provided any documented evidence of Jesus, thus hearsay.
Actually, the LACK of any documentation from that time period is strong evidence that he did NOT exist. Why would there not be any mention of a miraculous healer in any literature from that day, including the Dead Sea Scrolls?
There are few sources available, these are a few. And in all honesty, these presented will probably not be good enough.
You went to a lot of time and trouble there for which I thank you. But none of those you mention actually reported on meeting the man known as Jesus, nor do they present anything but heresay evidence, much of which has already been found to be tenuous at best.
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There will always be someone who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
I imagine, as with most hearsay, there is a bit of truth to these writings and to the hearsay included in the Gospels, but, IMO, not enough to dedicate one's life to.
But we're not discussing a figure from the future.
The bible has some crazy stuff in it but that's not what we're discussing.
I'm still waiting for some positive evidence that the man known as Jesus actually did exist. So far no such evidence has come to light.
I was not talking about a figure from the future, I'm talking about predictions from the past that are validated in our time in the aligment of nations, recent history, and aracheology. There is evidence for the Scriptures, if one is open to such evidence. You must remember, the Bible is both the teachings and predictions of Jesus Christ. If your looking for the Jerusalems Daily News, I don't believe we will find to many copies. Yet if your really searchng for the truth, then all such evidence sould be considered.
There was a burial box discovered in Jerusalem with the name James brother of Jesus on it. This was already discussed. Israeli archeglogist used an eletron microscope on the inscription and it was determined that it was the orginal, and the writing had not been tampered with from the ancient of times. Yet, did you not reject that evidence? It appears you are trying to filter evidence that only supports your arguement.
I believe the name used was the Aramaic version of Jesus. And I believe that name was common. However, such boxes were used around 20 A.D. to 70 A.D. Which would put it in the proper time frame. Also, it states that the inscription on the box stated "James son of Jeseph brother of Jesus." That tends to narrow it down some what. Also, scholars state that a brothers name would never appear on such a box, unless the brother was someone of importance.
I believe the name used was the Aramaic version of Jesus. And I believe that name was common. However, such boxes were used around 20 A.D. to 70 A.D. Which would put it in the proper time frame. Also, it states that the inscription on the box stated "James son of Jeseph brother of Jesus." That tends to narrow it down some what. Also, scholars state that a brothers name would never appear on such a box, unless the brother was someone of importance.
I agree, but I still don't believe this would suffice in even a civil court.
There is evidence for the Scriptures, if one is open to such evidence.
I have an open and enquiring mind. The evidence? (Not from the bible please, nor from someone writing years after the man known as Jesus was supposed to have existed.)
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You must remember, the Bible is both the teachings and predictions of Jesus Christ.
My position is that's impossible as such a man never existed.
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If your looking for the Jerusalems Daily News, I don't believe we will find to many copies.
Levity is always good. Thank you.
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Yet if your really searchng for the truth, then all such evidence sould be considered.
I'm merely searching for concrete evidence that the Jesus of Christianity ever existed. So far no such evidence has been produced.
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There was a burial box discovered in Jerusalem with the name James brother of Jesus on it. This was already discussed.
Yes we already discussed that artifact. It's been thoroughly examined by scientists and all the they can say is that it's an ancient artifact.
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Israeli archeglogist used an eletron microscope on the inscription and it was determined that it was the orginal, and the writing had not been tampered with from the ancient of times. Yet, did you not reject that evidence? It appears you are trying to filter evidence that only supports your arguement.
Now you're bending the truth ever so slightly. I wonder why.
The patina of the box was subject to electron microscope examination and the only conclusion was that it (the box) was of ancient origin.
However, as you know from our earlier discussion, scholars point out that the actual carving of the names is not the same as the rest of the box. Where the other carvings are definitely ancient, the names are (according to those who have scientifically examined the box) of a different, more recent time.
If this orrory (sp?) was truly an artifact showing that the Christian Jesus is even mentioned without question, don't you think that it would be exhibited in every Christian country in the world?
So the position is as was -- there's absolutely no evidence outside of heresay that the man known to Christians as Jesus (and/or by various other names) ever actually existed.
I agree, but I still don't believe this would suffice in even a civil court.
Yeah, especially if the judges and the jurors were all yelling crucify Him.
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