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Old 11-25-2009, 03:10 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,492,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
The Mari tablets speak of detailed practices such as adoption and inheritance simular to those found in the Genesis accounts. They reveal the slaughtering of animals when covenants were made, and this is how we key in on historical events that are in history, also in the bible, then dovetail them together. The Tablets mention names such as Noah, Abram, Laban and Jacob. A city called " Nahur" is mentioned, possibly named after Abrahams grandfather Nahor, as well as the city of Haran where Abraham lived for a time. Hazor is mentioned as well as Laish(Dan). You can reference Genesis 11:22- 12:4 and see these mentioned.

Peace.
From what I saw, Mari was a city very much in the Mesopotamian mould.

"The inhabitants of Mari worshiped a vast array of Sumerians gods and goddesses. Dagan, the deity of storms, had an entire temple dedicated to him, as did Ishtar, the goddess of fertility, and Shamash, the Sun god. Shamash was believed to be all-knowing and all-seeing, and in many seals he is seen standing between two large doors. According to the Epic of Gilgamesh, these doors are between Mount Mashu, and are the eastern doors to heaven. Through Mari's extensive trade network, Sumerian gods and goddesses were taken to non-Sumerian cities such as Ebla and Ugarit and incorporated into their native religions."

I can see that Hazor was mentioned in trade records but really, Genesis could have mentioned many cities and they would have been found in some ancient Akkadian records. It hardly proves anything about Genesis.

Cities or states mentioned in the Bible may well be mentioned in the Mari records. Why wouldn't they be? I'm far from sure about the claims that the 'habiru' and 'Benjamin' are mentioned. The Egyptians mentioned the habiru and there were unsuccessful attempts to link them with the Exodus. It's a bit pat that the same name (the Egyptians were noted as changing the pronunciation of countries) is found lo and behold in the Mari tablets.

Of course, the hebrews had to come from somewhere, why not Mari? Though Genesis says UR and there's no Hebrew names there, so far as I know. So it may or may not be an interesting opening on Hebrew tribal origins, but is it anything more than that?
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:44 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,492,491 times
Reputation: 5927
P.s Damn. Went off topic. It's a long, long way from possible hebrews in Akkadian city - states to historic evidence for Jesus.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,795,579 times
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Evidence for - 1 book (the Bible), no other corroborating documents.

Evidence against - the lack of evidence for
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Ireland
896 posts, read 1,860,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
[....]Jesus once passed through Samaria and encountered a woman at Jacobs well. That well, near the little village of Sycar is still in use today. Sizzling evidence of Christ!
Or perhaps this is a sizzling windup?

I've been reading your mails speaking of all 'they' found and to be honest I found them amusing.

I have travelled extensively in the Middle East over several years and have never heard anything of what you speak of.

Perhaps you would be so kind to cite authoritive texts to back up your extraordinary claims?

Otherwise I shall take it that you're winding us up here and getting some amusement from it.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 4,578,289 times
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And then we have the " Nuzi Tablets". An explosive archaeological discovery. Nuzi was a " Hurrian" administrative center not far from the Hurrian capital at Kirkuk in northern Irag. The Hurrians are equivalent to the " Horites" in the Old Testament, also called " Hivites and Jebusites". Excavations were carried out at Nuzi by American teams from 1925-1933. The major find was more than 5,000 family and administrative archives spanning 6 generations, ca. 1450-1350 B.C. They deal with the social, religious and legal institutions of the Hurrians. Very simular to the Mari find and they dovetail together to help us see that the bible is right on target to the practices of the times.

Let me go into the " Nuzi Find."

Peace.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 4,578,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northsider View Post
Or perhaps this is a sizzling windup?

I've been reading your mails speaking of all 'they' found and to be honest I found them amusing.

I have travelled extensively in the Middle East over several years and have never heard anything of what you speak of.

Perhaps you would be so kind to cite authoritive texts to back up your extraordinary claims?

Otherwise I shall take it that you're winding us up here and getting some amusement from it.

I will give texts as I so please, not as you please,. I am not trying to convince, I am sharing what I believe.

Peace.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,795,579 times
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As far as I'm aware and boy....have I looked, there is no credible non-Christian, extra-biblical or non-religious writings about Jesus or any tradition with regards to his followers or his teachings in the 1st century. Outside of the Bible we have we have no description of this dude, where he lived, his genealogy, nothing at all by any known historian writer of antiquity, unlike other figures of antiquity, such as Alexander the Great, or The Caesars.

If we look at the Greek gods, although regarded as myths today, they are at least, found in the writings of historians and writers in the 1st century, which show without doubt that these gods were worshipped and were part of the Greek tradition at that time, but there is nothing for Jesus. Nothing for years after his alleged death, when his 'followers' decide to put pen to paper. You would think that someone, somewhere would have mentioned a little something about an amazing man that could raise people from the dead, walk on water, cure the sick, feed thousands with virtually no food....and still have some left over.... whilst the guy was still alive!

True, information written long after a subject's death might be fine for general history, but we need other evidence to collaborate with it and it must agree with other knowledge of the period and area. We must ask, does fit within the realms of possibility? If so can it be considered probable? How reliable is the source, are there any indications or motivations for forgery, deliberate distortions etc?

History is a bit like a jigsaw puzzle and the puzzle usually has bits missing. If something has no solid connection to any other pieces, we should be suspicious - and this is especially true if it has any gods, magic, fantasies or other mumbo-jumbo.

Books by unknown authors, long after the event, about a religious figure that performs magical feats, comes back to life after death and so on, require very extensive backing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof as we atheist like to point out. The Bible has no backing outside itself.

We wouldn't pick up a comic about Superman and say Superman is real, simply because the comic says so. The comic, or in this case the gospels, are the claim that Jesus existed and as such, they can't be considered proof in support of the claim.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,795,579 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by northsider View Post
Or perhaps this is a sizzling windup?

I've been reading your mails speaking of all 'they' found and to be honest I found them amusing.

I have travelled extensively in the Middle East over several years and have never heard anything of what you speak of.

Perhaps you would be so kind to cite authoritive texts to back up your extraordinary claims?

Otherwise I shall take it that you're winding us up here and getting some amusement from it.
I think he's doing what he did in his thread 'Seduction of the Christian Mind'....just posting stuff that he is not prepared to discuss.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:55 PM
 
Location: where the moss is taking over the villages
2,184 posts, read 5,530,639 times
Reputation: 1270
The Jews acknowledge the historical Jesus probably existed. However, I've seen pretty great hints that he was actually a character from the OT reinvented into the NT.

Jewish View of Jesus "A story about a man named Yeshu can be found in the Talmud. There is debate whether this Yeshu in the Talmud is the same Jesus who later became a Christian divinity."

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Last edited by sarahkate_m; 11-25-2009 at 05:14 PM..
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 4,578,289 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
I think he's doing what he did in his thread 'Seduction of the Christian Mind'....just posting stuff that he is not prepared to discuss.

Discuss, theres nothing to discuss, you can find any of these proofs I list on the internet. Theres nothing to discuss with me, you can bicker amoung each other as much as you like. Discuss things with each other.

Peace.
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