Do you support evolution? (Jewish, sin, America, myth)

[PanTerra]

Originally Posted by Miss Martha

I also believe that DNA doesn’t prove evolution as a whole; if it did it wouldn’t be a theory anymore. Would it?

It will always be a scientific theory. In science "Theory" is not a point on a scale of certainty, going from guess to fact to law or something like that. It is what all the facts and laws hang on. It is the explanation of all the facts and observations. So if a Scientific Theory is confirmed over and over and stands up to tests and predicted observations to the point that is would be pevers to withhold consent (although always provisional) it will always be referred to as a Theory. In science, a big goal is to develop a Theory. Not a fact, which is just an observation, or a Law, which is just an observation that is so regularly observed that it can be express in a mathmatical equation. Think of the Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. This theory has been confirmed over the years with a great number of observations, the theory works. Numerous predictions (future observations) made from the Theory have eventually been observed, each adding another confirmation of it's reliability. Yet it is still a theory and doesn't become a Law, it is an explanation of the laws. The laws are Einstein's field equations that are a part of the Theory. The General Theory of Relativity explains the facts (observations) of Relativity, just as the Theory of Evolution explains the facts (observations) of evolution. This is not the same usage of theory in the vernacular sense, like a theory on how to pick up girls in a bar.

[Miss Martha]

Originally Posted by PanTerra

It will always be a scientific theory. In science "Theory" is not a point on a scale of certainty, going from guess to fact to law or something like that. It is what all the facts and laws hang on. It is the explanation of all the facts and observations. So if a Scientific Theory is confirmed over and over and stands up to tests and predicted observations to the point that is would be pevers to withhold consent (although always provisional) it will always be referred to as a Theory. In science, a big goal is to develop a Theory. Not a fact, which is just an observation, or a Law, which is just an observation that is so regularly observed that it can be express in a mathmatical equation. Think of the Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. This theory has been confirmed over the years with a great number of observations, the theory works. Numerous predictions (future observations) made from the Theory have eventually been observed, each adding another confirmation of it's reliability. Yet it is still a theory and doesn't become a Law, it is an explanation of the laws. The laws are Einstein's field equations that are a part of the Theory. The General Theory of Relativity explains the facts (observations) of Relativity, just as the Theory of Evolution explains the facts (observations) of evolution. This is not the same usage of theory in the vernacular sense, like a theory on how to pick up girls in a bar.

Thank you for that. I feel much more enlightened now!

[Mozart271]

Miss Martha, since you enjoy a good discussion, here is my reply to you:

Originally Posted by Miss Martha

Those are people who believed that there had to be some form of intelligence aside from man, which was behind the creation of the planet.

You have made a common error here in equating Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection with the formation of the planet/universe. Evolutionary theory has nothing to say about the origin of the universe or even of life on the planet--just the way in which species have evolved from other species.

None of these examples hurt my point at all. My point is that, there are intelligent people out there who have different points of view on things than other intelligent people.

True!

I also believe that DNA doesn’t prove evolution as a whole; if it did it wouldn’t be a theory anymore. Would it?

Another common misconception. Evolution is a fact; it has so much evidence for it that it is as much a fact as gravity. Scientific theories are explanations for observed facts--Newton and Einstein formulated theories of gravity which work experimentally; Darwin formulated the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. With some arguments still out among biologists re: fine points, there is agreement that Darwin was correct.

I am more interested in bringing the other side of things to the table than I am to actually voicing my own opinion, why, because my opinion is exactly that and I am of too sound of mind to be swayed by any arguments.

That's a shame, because it indicates you are closed-minded. If the argument is truly convincing, why would you not be swayed?

Nothing has been proven one way or another

Evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be true. There are many scientists who are religious, but they see no conflict with evolutionary theory. Only if someone must believe that the Bible is 100% literally true is there any problem.

Teresa

[Megande]

To anyone who is really interested in this topic, I just finished an OUTSTANDING book, "The language of God" by Francis Collins. He was the head of the Human Genome Project and one of the country's leading geneticists. He explains the insurmountable evidence supporting evolution, but talks about how there is no reason that this is incompatible with God in the slightest. God has given us tools to understand the world around us; Christians do the faith a great deal of injustice by refusing to accept what is readily apparent to science when there is no real incompatibility in the first place.

In short, I am a Christian, I believe the Bible is true, and I recognize that evolution is a reality. I see no problems with that viewpoint.

[LBSer]

megande. you are so wrong. how can you believe in both? my main problem with evolution is their big bang theory vs. God's creation of EVERYTHING. which directly contradicts the greatest science fiction of all that dinosaurs were the first EVER creatures that wALKED THE EARTH.

Originally Posted by Megande

In short, I am a Christian, I believe the Bible is true, and I recognize that evolution is a reality. I see no problems with that viewpoint.

which beginnig of man do you believe? creation or evolution? MAN ONLY has one beginning. so I SEE A PROBLEM in your statement.

[DreamChasers8]

KC, I love how you seem to be personally attacking me for my belief. You act as though I must be some kind of cultish, idiot to believe in creationism. Very open minded of you! For your information, I do not "blindly" follow anything like some dumb robot. I have my beliefs which I have at times questioned but always come back to stronger than ever,as you obviously have yours. At least I have more class than to personally attack someone who is simply sharing their opinion on what started out as a poll.
By the way creationism is based on much much more than a few bible stories, which I doubt you have ever even read. So educate yourself on both side of the topic, or do you just blindly follow your own ever changing scientific "theroies"??

[DreamChasers8]

LBSer, You couldn't be more right. How can someone believe in both. Either God created us and everything around us as it states in Genesis OR it was all a big cosmic oops. That is one of the main focuses of Chrisitanity, God created man. They go hand in hand!!!

[GCSTroop]

I think where the main point of contention seems to be in all of this is that people have been told from a very early age and all throughout their lives both in church and probably at home that evolution is nothing but a myth that will conflict with a belief in God.

I'm not saying this because I "believe" in evolution and I want to convince anyone because there is nothing to really "believe" in. Evolution is a fact as much as the keyboard you type on is a fact. It's been proven over and over and over again both in nature and the laboratory and the historical fossil record. To try and refute it makes one seem a bit uneducated. It probably has more solid evidence for it than certain parts of quantum physics and atomic theory do. There is almost certainly more visible evidence for natural selection than there is for gravity if you want to talk about an unseen "force" that causes things to happen.

The problem is that for so long, the churches in particular, have strongly advocated that any belief in evolution is to strictly go against the word of God. If you do a little research into the history behind something that attacks science it is almost always the church that is behind it. Quite honestly, denying evolution at this point in the ball game is right up there with denying that the Earth revolves around the sun.

However, what seems to flabergast me the most is that people try to assert opinions and thoughts on evolution that are commonly not accurate. Most of it seems to come from a genuine misunderstanding of the theory and while I blame projects like AiG and the Discovery Institute for much of this, I also feel that our school systems fail to present it in a manner that is acceptable to people and in a way that they can understand it. What I mean by that is it is my understanding that evolution is one of the last things taught in science class, and in particular, biology but it seems that religious-based organizations are trying to pick up where the schools are failing and insert their own brand of science with inaccurate information. I'm sorry, it's just not science because that's what your church says.

I'm a firm believer that you can hold a belief in God and evolution simultaneously even though I am not one of those people. Evolution does not seek to explain the origins of life and/or the universe. It does, however, give an amazingly accurate portrayal for the origins of species backed up by magnitudes of solid evidence that has been repeated in a meticulous fashion. I have referred on multiple occassions for people who feel there can be no reconciliation to read Ken Miller's Finding Darwin's God. I will be honest and say that I have not yet read it, but I have heard nothing but wonderful things about it.

In closing, I'd like to suggest that people make a valiant effort at trying to understand the science before they try to refute it. I have yet to see a valid argument against evolution that is backed by a robust, empirical method of scientific research. I challenge those who argue against it to read Darwin's Origin of Species and other books on the matter. Yet, I think that would be way too much to ask as I get the feeling that many on here refuse to read these books out of fear of being convinced otherwise. I find that to be pretty intellectually dishonest and a perfect symbology of exactly why this country has become so irrational and illogical. Choosing to remain willfully ignorant of robust scientific methods leads me to wonder how far people are really willing to go as regards true thinking ability.

If we're allowing the churches to teach our children that what they are taught in school, more specifically science class, is a lie than how far are we going to go before they feel that everything they are taught should only be taken with a grain of salt? The theories being taught in science class and mathematics aren't taught because there is some sort of atheistic agenda but rather because it is what we know about the world at this current snapshot in time and nothing more.

[DreamChasers8]

I challange you to read a bible but I guess that would be too much to ask for fear of being convinced otherwise. It goes both ways. Choosing to believe in God does not make someone iggnorant. But a statment insinuating that very thing does.
Evolution is NOT a proven fact, just a widely accepted one. It's a theroy nothing more. To someone who has not been brought up in a Christian environment it would seem very easy and believable for evolution to explain how we all got here. But to those of us who have been enlightened can see that someone else (a higher being) planned all of this and us.

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by DreamChasers8

LBSer, You couldn't be more right. How can someone believe in both. Either God created us and everything around us as it states in Genesis OR it was all a big cosmic oops. That is one of the main focuses of Chrisitanity, God created man. They go hand in hand!!!

What? So either genesis is true or there is no god? Why do you think it has to be only those 2?

This is whats called a false dichotomy and its a logical fallacy. Assuming a god believes and created everything, why would she just poof everything into existance?


Is this really how you envision god works? Or do you allow the possibility that god uses natural methods to get things done?

Why can't god use evolution to create man instead of just poofing it? Evolution is just a mechanism, throughout all the time ive spent studying it in my college biology I keep failing to see how it excludes god.

I still can't see it and the christians at the clergy project don't either

Originally Posted by DreamChasers8

I challange you to read a bible but I guess that would be too much to ask for fear of being convinced otherwise.

*sigh* sure its because no one but creationists have ever even glanced at the bible that people accept evolution

Originally Posted by DreamChasers8

It goes both ways. Choosing to believe in God does not make someone iggnorant. But a statment insinuating that very thing does.

Ok now let me be the one to do the challenging. I challenge you to quote someone who is calling or insinuating a person is ignorant simply for believing in god. Because all the scoffing i've seen so far is at the ignorance some people show of what evolution really says and why its so widely supported.

Originally Posted by DreamChasers8

Evolution is NOT a proven fact, just a widely accepted one. It's a theroy nothing more.

Its both actually. Species change over time through means of random mutation and natural selection. Speciation is a fact, you grab a species. Divide them into 2 groups, isolate them and wait a few generations. This is impossible to deny without closing your eyes, putting your hands in your ears and shouting laalalalalalal I cant hear you!!

After seeing that species slowly change over time, we ask ourselves "hmm, maybe this is how all the different species came about!". Now we have the theory bit which so far is the best explanation to all the evidence thats laying about(fossils and whatnot).

Originally Posted by DreamChasers8

To someone who has not been brought up in a Christian environment it would seem very easy and believable for evolution to explain how we all got here. But to those of us who have been enlightened can see that someone else (a higher being) planned all of this and us.

not to these people who were also bought up in a christian environment but know what the bible is not greater than god and that genesis is not a historical account but rather as a series of stories which was part of the culture at the time.

http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/...laboration.htm


The problem is that you seem to think this:

all creationists are christians
therefore
all christians are creationists


this is a non sequitir(ie a fallacy) because the conclusion does not follow the premises. If all gophers are mammals then are all mammals gophers? No they are not.

So having a problem with evolution only comes if you are bought up in a family that believes creation is all magic and miracles(read: poofing) and not take into account the possibility that god used evolution to make us