Christian Deception (miracle, gays, sin, truth)

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

I personally don't agree with the actions chielgirl spoke of and the majority of folks I know who are christian do not agree with them either because it's not the christian way. I was taught early on that we should judge others as individuals, not by any other criteria and I have followed that tenet to this day.

True, but Christians like any other have opinions and they are able to think for themselves. If Christians simply follow a Christian leader who keeps making mistake after mistake and they do nothing, who is then to blame; the leader or the followers?
Do the followers not also have an individual responsibility?

There is an outcry here in NYC over recent shootings of black people that has folks saying that the department should be investigated and clean house top to bottom. The shootings are terribly unfortunate but does that mean every cop in NYC is bad?

No, not every cop is bad but there still should be an investigation to see if anything out of the ordinary happened.

[urbanlemur]

Everyone has an individual responsiblity in this life. You would have to ask those who participate in those crimes because I certainly don't know why. Just like I don't know why people who know that the speed limit is 55 choose to drive 15-20+ miles over the speed limit. Or why a person who knows that it is against the law to steal walks into a store with a gun and robs it. Or why a father would choose to throw his child out of a second story window because he believes that his wife is cheating on him. You would have to ask them.

[Tricky D]

True, but religion and politics are hard to question.
Especially if you only claim that you follow God's direction.
Bombing abortion clinics or whatever is a religious act, or inspired by religion. Not all bombers were fanatics (like Timothy Mcveigh), simply misguided. They believed deeply that they have done nothing wrong because they believed to have been acting under God's authority while fighting for those who could not fight back (the unborn children).
The same is for invading Iraq (because Bush claims to have done so on God's authority). Invading a country under the power of a higher power goes beyond politics.
So did Timothy Mcveigh although unlike the abortion bombers and Bush, he is believed to be a true fanatic.
All the 3 actions are, unlike speeding, done with God's support and supported by Christians and not only of the zealot kind.
As far as I can tell speeding as nothing to do with religion.

[urbanlemur]

As far as I can tell speeding as nothing to do with religion.

Perhaps not but it is still an act of breaking the law and if christians do this, then they are acting in a way contrary to God's will which is to follow the laws of the land.

You seem to equate christianity with all sorts of illegal and deplorable acts or am I misreading your statements? You seem to be painting a larger picture with a broad brush that declares that all christians belong in the category of murderers, lawbreakers etc. based on the actions of a few misguided people and that simply is not the case. So would you say that black people are slum-dwelling, white-hating, killing machines? Are you saying that muslim people blow up market places full of innocent civilians? Would you state that because someone is Italian that this makes them a member of the mafia? The answer is unequivocally no on all accounts and it is an erroneous assumption to say that because of the actions of a few people who have chosen to take matters into their own hands and produce heinous acts of violence that this constitutes an accurate portrayal of the people with whom they claim membership.

[chielgirl]

Originally Posted by silas777

I am probably going to be sorry I asked, but ,I wonder if you could give an example of a "dangerous" Christian and what makes them so?

I answered the question that was posed.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

You seem to equate christianity with all sorts of illegal and deplorable acts or am I misreading your statements?

Yes you are. When you have sinned does this mean that you are not a Christian anymore? If you are a criminal, does this mean that you are not a Christian anymore?

I myself find nothing wrong with civil disobedience when it is done for a just cause. I applaud every Christian who during WWII at the risk of his own life hid the Jews from the authorities.
I just do not call everyone who breaks the law for a cause he believes in a fanatic.
Bush for instance is not a fanatic, but his actions just border on stupidity, although this is just my personal opinion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was put in the seat of power by many religious organisations, or at least with their help and support, right?

Perhaps not but it is still an act of breaking the law and if christians do this, then they are acting in a way contrary to God's will which is to follow the laws of the land.

Breaking human law on God's command is a religious act. The abortion bombers claimed that they just fought for the unborn children. These people are in no way fanatics or cult followers.
They just believe strongly that their cause is just, much like in the 50's when most of the black people and some white students protested against segregation. Several believed that some form of violence was justified, but that doesn't make them fanatics.
The problem with God's will is that even the Bible contradicts itself on many points. Just because someone uses violence for a cause they feel justified doesn't mean that they cannot be a Christian or can only be a Christian fanatic.

Or do you believe that when you are a Christian, you cannot be in the military?

[urbanlemur]

Or do you believe that when you are a Christian, you cannot be in the military?

Nothing in the Bible that states otherwise.

Bush for instance is not a fanatic, but his actions just border on stupidity, although this is just my personal opinion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was put in the seat of power by many religious organisations, or at least with their help and support, right?

This is true but it is quite possible (likely?) that he got in under false pretenses among other things? (For the record, I am not much of a Bush supporter either!)

If a christian disagrees with abortion, they can act in ways other than bombing clinics. At our church, we have a prayer vigil once a year on behalf of the unborn. Churches have outreach programs to help people in such situations. Churches engage in many non-violent methods of outreach in regards to abortion. Which way do you think most christians would choose?

The problem with God's will is that even the Bible contradicts itself on many points.

That is an issue debatable in another thread but suffice it to say, most christians would disagree with this statement.

The fact of the matter is that christians who break either man's laws or especially His laws are answerable to either a court of law or eventually to Him as are everyone else.

If you are a criminal, does this mean that you are not a Christian anymore?

The Bible says that they will known as His by the fruit of their works. Is it possible that a person who commits these crimes may truly believe that they are a christian when in actuality they are not? Only they can answer this.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

Nothing in the Bible that states otherwise.

The thing with military organisations is that they do not always operate under civil law, especially during a war (at least this is so in the Dutch military).
In peace time a soldier can refuse to follow an order and complain to a superior. This is impossible during war.
When in war the military becomes more important than civil law or scripture. If a soldier is ordered to do something he must obey and cannot refuse, even if the bible (or God) says otherwise. A soldier is to obey his commander 1st and God comes at a distant 2nd or 3rd place. This is expected from a professional soldier because if a soldier would not do this, the military machine would fall apart.

If a christian disagrees with abortion, they can act in ways other than bombing clinics.

True, but the fighters for equal rights for the black Americans have done this for many decades with absolutely zero result. It took many years and many riots before things really changed. Riots where the blacks were beaten brutally by the Christian law-officers.
I doubt if anything had changed if there had been no outrage or riots.
I mean Indian reservations are still abysmal places and yet the Christians do not act Christian like. A true Christian would give the things back which he had stolen from the red man, but this probably will never happen. Most Christians will probably claim that according to human law they would not be required to do so, but Jesus claims otherwise.

That is an issue debatable in another thread but suffice it to say, most christians would disagree with this statement.

True, but most Christians would claim that they walk the walk instead of only talk the talk, yet I would claim they only believe to walk the walk. But that is probably because I'm not a Christian.

The Bible says that they will known as His by the fruit of their works. Is it possible that a person who commits these crimes may truly believe that they are a christian when in actuality they are not? Only they can answer this.

I believe otherwise. I believe that actions speak louder than words. So a Christian might believe and claim that he follows Christ, but that does not mean that he actually follows Jesus.

Do we agree that that not everyone who breaks the law because of a religious conviction is a fanatic?
A fanatic is a person who only cares about his (religious) agenda and mostly these people are true psychopaths who care nothing about their fellow man. The only thing they care about is reaching their (religious) objective and nothing else. The abortion bombers are not fanatics because to a degree they care about other innocent bystanders.
A fanatic would not mind dropping an atomic bomb on a city to take out 1 abortion clinic, while the abortion bombers only want to hurt the clinic or the medical personnel.
So not every criminal is a fanatic, but every fanatic is a criminal.

[urbanlemur]

But not all christians are fanatics.

[Tricky D]

I never claimed that, but most Christians don't do anything to change for the better either.
I believe that Christians are just like any other human, although a Christian probably disagrees with this.