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Blackmail is the perfect word for it. Blackmail and terrorism. In the OT, YHWY instructed Moses to murder 3000 innocent Jews that DECIDED to express their basic human rights and openly, peacefully worship a statue of a golden calf, instead of Moses's "God". YHWH also instructed Moses to stone to death a man for his peaceful demonstration against Moses's laws and picked up sticks on the Sabbath in protest. This is the same "God" that sanctions all kinds of atrocities, and the same "God" who condemns Jesus to death. There is no choice. It is terrorism. You are to love YHWH and no one else, or die. We are to thank Jesus for bringing the world so much closer to YHWH. Yeah, thank you Jesus. Thanks for that.
what is your fascination with Moses? It's like you're obsessed.
what is your fascination with Moses? It's like you're obsessed.
Moses's doctrine is the cause of all kinds of horrible intolerance and confusion. He rips you AWAY from God. He rips you away from all that is Holy and true, and towards Satan-- the tin "God" of immorality and terrorism.
Plus I take the Rider to influence. I believe the Rider and his ministry leads the way. Moses is the latch-pin, that, once pulled, all the Abrahamic religions come falling down. Moses is the very source to the most horrible evil to have ever been unleashed upon mankind. It all comes down to exposing Moses. Muhammad is also just as evil as Moses, but Moses is really at the source of Muhammad. Muhammad is just another Moses wannabe. Just another terrorist that takes Moses to influence.
Last edited by Rider's Pantheon; 10-17-2013 at 11:43 AM..
what is your fascination with Moses? It's like you're obsessed.
Obsession, hobby-horse, whatever you want to call it ... the only difference between what he has latched onto and what anyone else has latched onto (including you) is that he is a "church of one" on the topic and as far as I can tell no one else is buying into it.
Rhetorically, though, I gotta ask ... is his idea any more nutty just because he has no followers? I would say it is just a meme that doesn't resonate with an itch anyone else cares to scratch.
The point I was trying to make is that if god is actually omniscient and literally KNOWS ALL, then god knows--before each of us is even born--who will be saved and who will be damned.
Either that, or god is not at all omniscient.
So are you saying that God should have only created human beings that he knew in advance would be saved? But then that's like creating a time travel paradox where the sinful human being actually doesn't exist anymore in the future so what God saw in the future never happened. Then was God's future vision really true?
I think the reality is just too big for our brains to comprehend. We can only think of time in a linear fashion and God tells us that He was always here and will always be here. That alone is hard to comprehend.
Some Christians claim that God gave people free will because he wanted people to choose Him because they wanted to (not because they were forced to).
But is that really so?
Imagine that someone is pointing a gun at you and says: choose me or I'll shoot you. And the person will say: ok, I choose you. So does that mean that person chose him because he wanted to or because he really did not have a choice? (I mean death was not considered a choice in this case).
It's not a choice. It's blackmail.
In Christian teachings, God says: choose me, or else you'll be tortured for eternity.
So, when people do end up choosing God, it's most likely because they didn't want to be tortured for eternity. So in this case, God did not accomplish his goal, people did not choose him because they wanted to. If God truly wanted people to choose Him because they wanted to, the only way to do that would be to give them 2 good choices. Chose me or not choose me and good things will happen to you in both cases.
So therefore, the argument that God gave people free will to choose Him willingly can't be true.
So then, why did God gave people free will? Knowing that most will end up in hell?
It doesn't seem to serve God. It doesn't seem to serve people. What good is free will again?
The only thing that free will accomplishes is that most people will go to hell (according to Jesus' words: many are chosen, but few will be saved)
Therefore, free will is not a gift, but a curse. And it makes no one happy. Unless God WANTED most people to go to hell.
So then why did God give people free will?
I think you'll have to find another explanation because this one doesn't work. Although I couldn't find any.
In annihilation theory - choose me and live and not choose me and die - it's still a forced choice. In universalism, no matter what you do, you'll be saved, it's like there is no free will.
First, note that in the situation where there is no free will, it works out the best for all. (For God, if he truly wants all people to be saved, and for people: they get a great life, no questions asked, who could argue against that?)
Second, note that the explanation for free will cannot be true in any of these cases.
I just thought I would bring it to your attention in case you didn't notice the problem yourself.
God is not threatening anyone will with hell. Firstly, Hell is the only place where God can't be found. In other words it's the only place that has nothing to do with God. So when a person truly rejects God, they are saying they want nothing to do with God. So Hell is a place where there is no light, no strength, no rest. All the good things come from God. Secondly, the torment (besides being seperated from having strength and the things I mentioned) is punishment for trangressing against God. If you stole something from me, I might have you arrested. You took what belonged to me, you committed a crime against me, and so you're punished. In the same way, the whole universe belongs to God. If you for instance abused someone, you committed a crime against God. Thus you're punished for it.
So God is not threatening anyone, it's simply justice. Even if the punishment part was temporary, a person is still going to suffer from being apart from God.
Some Christians claim that God gave people free will because he wanted people to choose Him because they wanted to (not because they were forced to).
But is that really so?
Imagine that someone is pointing a gun at you and says: choose me or I'll shoot you. And the person will say: ok, I choose you. So does that mean that person chose him because he wanted to or because he really did not have a choice? (I mean death was not considered a choice in this case).
Good post. This is a topic that I have brought up a few times to other Christians. I think a better analogy would be if a girlfriend wants to leave her boyfriend and he say's "You're free to leave me, but if you do I'll hunt you down"
The point I was trying to make is that if god is actually omniscient and literally KNOWS ALL, then god knows--before each of us is even born--who will be saved and who will be damned.
Either that, or god is not at all omniscient.
Funny...people who don't believe in invisible supernatural beings are actually responsible for their own ups and downs and their own actions. They don't have the luxury of falling back on imaginary friends to praise or blame for things.
If, God created lesser gods (lower case g= mankind), than the lesser gods with no spiritual power at all would be helpless in effecting the salvation of their own souls.
That places mankind in a condemned condition. Condemned as in not having salvation ability.
What all that means is that unless God takes steps to save His own creation, NO ONE ELSE WILL.
I have seen ths before in a man whom was angry with God for giving him a choice.The OP is angry because his rebellion will not be a source of compromise with God. What level of compromise would be correct, that would not lead to further compromise, much like our government? God does not compromise with rebellion ,no need to . He didn't compromise with Lucifer leading a rebellion of a third of the angels and kicked them out. There is no need to compromise with man either. The purpouses for creation don't have to be explained to man or any one. God is not accountable to you. You are not equal to Him in the slightest. no sense in acting arrogant.
If, God created lesser gods (lower case g= mankind), than the lesser gods with no spiritual power at all would be helpless in effecting the salvation of their own souls.
That places mankind in a condemned condition. Condemned as in not having salvation ability.
What all that means is that unless God takes steps to save His own creation, NO ONE ELSE WILL.
Blessings, AJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
I have seen ths before in a man whom was angry with God for giving him a choice.The OP is angry because his rebellion will not be a source of compromise with God. What level of compromise would be correct, that would not lead to further compromise, much like our government? God does not compromise with rebellion ,no need to . He didn't compromise with Lucifer leading a rebellion of a third of the angels and kicked them out. There is no need to compromise with man either. The purpouses for creation don't have to be explained to man or any one. God is not accountable to you. You are not equal to Him in the slightest. no sense in acting arrogant.
I'd be tempted to give in to despair if I thought this type of thinking was the norm.
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