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I travelled through the Middle East and North Africa extensively and all the people I met were fine with me being an Atheist ( even in Iran! land of Satan to some ). They asked me why , listened politely, told me why they believed that Allah existed and then we usually had food, mint tea and a laugh ( and I was a single woman traveller by the way). I never encountered hostility and certainly no attempt at trying to convert me. I realise there are Muslim fundamentalists who would have me stoned to death but then again extremism is not a Monopoly of Islam. Same in other countries of different faiths.
Oh really? Wow. I guess these Muslims in Sudan are extremists, then?
Country of Sudan Charges Teacher (broken link)
By the way, stoning isn't a part of "extremism". It's a part of Shari'ah (islamic law) on a daily basis. So are hanging, beheading, and firing squads. Some examples of what is punishable by death: homosexuality, adultery, apostacy (leaving the faith), rape, and murder.
There are some very interesting books out there about Shari'ah. I'm surprised that being a single woman traveler (and wow, in Iran no less, not sure if you're very brave or naive or both) you don't know more about the subject. I'd make sure I knew everything there is to know before traveling by myself to Libya, Iran, Egypt, et al.
Oh really? Wow. I guess these Muslims in Sudan are extremists, then?
Country of Sudan Charges Teacher (broken link)
By the way, stoning isn't a part of "extremism". It's a part of Shari'ah (islamic law) on a daily basis. So are hanging, beheading, and firing squads. Some examples of what is punishable by death: homosexuality, adultery, apostacy (leaving the faith), rape, and murder.
There are some very interesting books out there about Shari'ah. I'm surprised that being a single woman traveler (and wow, in Iran no less, not sure if you're very brave or naive or both) you don't know more about the subject. I'd make sure I knew everything there is to know before traveling by myself to Libya, Iran, Egypt, et al.
On a different subject but just as frustrating do you remember those British airplane spotters that the Greek government wanted to put away, state secrets they said old US planes about thirty years old.
Very hard to understand where other countries are coming from. No doubt the Uk can seem intolerant to some also.
But hard to blame these things on the Devil rather cultural.
Last edited by famenity; 11-28-2007 at 01:39 PM..
Reason: left of punchline
Agreed, famenity. I wonder though, what force is driving all this cultural mayhem. If we have good in the world, it makes sense that we would have evil, too. If it isn't the presence of Satan, then what? Just human beings being what they are taught to be...how do you un-teach that? I guess if we could figure that out, we (the US) wouldn't be in the Middle East. It is frustrating no matter how you look at it, I guess.
Hey Shana, this sure is true, but instilling someone with the knowledge between good and evil (like God who has this knowledge, simply because he is omniscient) and then insisting him to only be good is asking this human that he is only perfectly good
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Tricky D., I believe that God wants us to ultimately realize that "good "is the goal, not evil. God is good - not evil but He uses evil to bring about good. Can you see the difference? God in His essence is good, but He creates evil or manifests evil in the creation so that we can, for example, learn the difference between good and evil. We learn to choose good over evil. The object is not to be both good and evil. The object is to be made in the image of God who is good, not evil, but we learn to be good through the experience of evil.
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A child might inherit the hot temperament of his father and the gentleness of his mother, but insisting that the child is only gentle is denying the father.
Humans are good AND evil just like in God's image, but insisting that man only behaves Good is benign and has no evil thought, is demanding that man is better than God since GOD does both good and evil. It is just humanity that insists that God can only be benign.
Tricky D., I don't think that you get yet what I am sharing, but I will try again. God creates evil (ra), but that does not mean that He Himself is evil. God does not sin. God as God has all rights to do whatever He wills as He is the Originator of all. We are being made into the image of God, but we are not going to be God. All is out of Him and evil has its place in the development of mankind. Evil is a temporary situation and human beings are learning the consequences of doing good and evil. They will learn in the end that good triumphs over evil.
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I mean if a woman falls in love with a man and after their marriage it turns out that her husband is abusive as well, should the woman also love and accept her husband's abusive side?
I would give this woman the advice to get out of this marriage, no matter how much she loves the non-abusive side of her husband, simply because a loving man would never abuse people and certainly not the one he claims to love.
And yet many Christians will believe that her husband being abusive is a test from God, or that it is necessary so she would appreciate her husband's non-abusive side more.
Or that love should be agape and that she should tolerate the abuse.
Or that if she leaves him, she never loved him at all.
There are many reason to love wrong and be evil and only 1 reason how to love right and be good, but abuse certainly ain't a sign of love.
Having agape love for someone does not mean that we have to stay in abusive situation. Agape is doing what is beneficial or benevolent for someone and having love for them inspite of. Would it be good for the other person to continue to sin against God by treating his wife in this way? Is it good for the wife to allow him to abuse his power in the relationship for whatever the reason if she is able to get out? Agape love says "no" many times. God, in his agape love for us, does not accept sin in us. He loves us in spite of our sin but His purpose is to free us from the slavery to sin, not to permit us to live forever in it. God has instructed men to care for their wives just as they care for their own bodies. They are to love and cherish their wives. I don't believe that God has instructed women to stay in abusive situations but they can have agape love for the abuser without staying in as a victim of the abuser but they can show agape love by getting out and praying for the abuser. I believe that God is able to teach lessons to both the victim and the abuser from this situation and if He does not do it in this age it will be done in a future time. God bless you.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-28-2007 at 03:00 PM..
I never said that the object of man was to be good and evil, I only said that man, like God, is created both good and evil. But that God only wishes man to be good.
I mean it would be far better if God never had planted the Tree of knowledge between good and evil in the garden of Eden, because unlike you I do not believe that everyone will choose good. The majority chooses evil, because being selfish is far easier for the individual than to not be selfish.
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Evil is a temporary situation and human beings are learning the consequences of doing good and evil. They will learn in the end that good triumphs over evil.
Unfortunately I am not that optimistic about man's choices.
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I believe that God is able to teach lessons to both the victim and the abuser from this situation if not in this age, in a future time. God bless you.
The problem is that God is eternal, so has endless time, while man only has a limited time to learn. And if one chooses to be evil, and there are many who do, evil could be eternal.
Because I am also not an optimist I'll never tell a person that everything will be alright, if I'm not really sure of this. I do not wish to give people false hope if I do not believe that everything will be alright.
I guess we then have to agree to disagree on this point also.
Although the outcome was predictable I still enjoyed exchanging our POV.
I never said that the object of man was to be good and evil, I only said that man, like God, is created both good and evil. But that God only wishes man to be good.
But here we disagree, Tricky D. I don't believe that God is created and I don't believe that He is good and evil.
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I mean it would be far better if God never had planted the Tree of knowledge between good and evil in the garden of Eden, because unlike you I do not believe that everyone will choose good.
Well, I don't believe that everyone chooses good now, but I do believe that everyone will eventually choose good. (not because of themselves though), So, yes we disagree. I believe that it was essential for God to plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
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The majority chooses evil, because being selfish is far easier for the individual than to not be selfish.
I agree, we are all born to be sinners and this I believe according to the plan of God. It is easier to be selfish, I agree with that and I believe that those who choose "good" or who choose God, do this because of the power of God working within them.
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Evil is a temporary situation and human beings are learning the consequences of doing good and evil. They will learn in the end that good triumphs over evil.
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Unfortunately I am not that optimistic about man's choices.
I understand.
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I believe that God is able to teach lessons to both the victim and the abuser from this situation if not in this age, in a future time. God bless you.
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The problem is that God is eternal, so has endless time, while man only has a limited time to learn. And if one chooses to be evil, and there are many who do, evil could be eternal.
Because I am also not an optimist I'll never tell a person that everything will be alright, if I'm not really sure of this. I do not wish to give people false hope if I do not believe that everything will be alright. I guess we then have to agree to disagree on this point also.
Yes, we will because I believe that evil will never be eternal when Jesus subjects all (outside of God) to Himself as recorded in 1 Corinthians 15. Here I see that God will ultimately be all in all. It is a glorious outcome, I believe presented in the scriptures. Since we don't agree on the issue of whether or not we have free will, this is definitely a point of disagreement. I don't believe that man's will is able to defeat the ultimate will of God and I believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1)
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Although the outcome was predictable I still enjoyed exchanging our POV.
Thanks, I have enjoyed the exchange also. Take care and God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-28-2007 at 03:25 PM..
I thought the devil turn against god, because he wanted to. Not because god wanted him to. Just like when ppl kill ppl, some say how could god let that happen. God didnt let that happen, the devil was in those ppl who commit murder or other horrific crimes.
I thought the devil turn against god, because he wanted to. Not because god wanted him to. Just like when ppl kill ppl, some say how could god let that happen. God didnt let that happen, the devil was in those ppl who commit murder or other horrific crimes.
Hi, do you believe that the devil was created perfect and do you think that God knew that the devil was going to turn against Him? God bless.
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The majority chooses evil, because being selfish is far easier for the individual than to not be selfish.
Although the outcome was predictable I still enjoyed exchanging our POV.
