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Old 11-17-2013, 01:26 PM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,133,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
The store manager who caught her stealing. Or the sheriff sent to arrest her by the store manager. Or the judge if it ever makes it to trial.
If the owner of the stolen item shows mercy then no need for justice to be served.

However, a sheriff or judge showing her mercy means that the owner did not receive justice unless the owner goes along with the them.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want punishment for a starving mother and child who were just trying to eat but not everybody feels this way.

Perhaps mercy and justice should not be placed together when considering word concepts. In other words, I don't think they are antonyms either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
No it does not follow that all theists become ascetics or that all atheists become self-absorbed materialists.

In my personal experience, the transition from theism to atheism had virtually no impact on my ethics or morality or my desire for consumer goods. I guess that eventually a strong influence on one's philosophical positions on these things, changes in backstory, etc. are inevitable; but what Christians generally don't seem to understand that the values they hold come from within themselves and from their family and culture and upbringing, not god. Those values therefore are present regardless of what they believe about god.

To address another common misconception: all atheists do not become nihilists. This is one possible (and generally maladaptive) response to the loss of the Christian backstory -- one of many. Once again, Christians and non-Christians alike live in an indifferent universe with no one at the controls (and no control panel anyway), it is not like unbelief actually changes anything other than you quit kidding yourself about certain things.

Yet another misconception: unbelievers don't all become fornicating drug addicts and general profligates. It is possible that someone who was predisposed to that and theism was keeping a lid on it, might go off the rails if they leave the strictures of their belief-system; but if they are addictive personalities as theists, they will be addictive personalities as atheists.

Believers flatter their god by claiming that whatever morality, self-control, and emotional stability the possess come from divine sources. Then they let their god off the hook by claiming that their peccadilloes come from Satan or themselves. It ALL comes from themselves. Gods are bolt-on accessories upon which people project their hopes, dreams, aspirations, fears, pain, etc. When you are used to doing this it seems necessary, even crucial, to do so; but the truth is, it actually is seldom a net benefit.
Yes, I agree and thank you for putting this into words. I have a habit of asking questions to understand how a person takes in information.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:03 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,543 posts, read 1,309,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
If the owner of the stolen item shows mercy then no need for justice to be served.

However, a sheriff or judge showing her mercy means that the owner did not receive justice unless the owner goes along with the them.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want punishment for a starving mother and child who were just trying to eat but not everybody feels this way.

Perhaps mercy and justice should not be placed together when considering word concepts. In other words, I don't think they are antonyms either.



Yes, I agree and thank you for putting this into words. I have a habit of asking questions to understand how a person takes in information.
I believe that the Christian God is perfectly Holy and gave His Only Begotten Son to die on the cross as payment for our sins if we truly believe in Jesus as the Son of God. He then gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost which Peter says in Acts 5:32 that God gives to those who OBEY Him. He told the woman who had been caught in the very act of adultery, when all walked away from her when Jesus said "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone" - He then told her, "Neither do I condemn thee, but GO AND SIN NO MORE." When He gives us the promised Holy Ghost, that gives us power to overcome Satan and resist willful sin.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:17 PM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,133,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
I believe that the Christian God is perfectly Holy and gave His Only Begotten Son to die on the cross as payment for our sins if we truly believe in Jesus as the Son of God. He then gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost which Peter says in Acts 5:32 that God gives to those who OBEY Him. He told the woman who had been caught in the very act of adultery, when all walked away from her when Jesus said "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone" - He then told her, "Neither do I condemn thee, but GO AND SIN NO MORE." When He gives us the promised Holy Ghost, that gives us power to overcome Satan and resist willful sin.
Thank you for trying to clarify things with me.

This story of the woman who had been caught in the very act of adultery does not support that God gave her the gift of the Holy Ghost. We do not know if she obeyed Jesus or not. He commanded her but that is all I read.
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Old 11-28-2013, 07:42 AM
 
Location: kS.
505 posts, read 573,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
mordant -
I'm jumping in at the middle of a long-standing dilemma which you have experienced. I personally believe the most imporant thing is to look at what we desire more than anything else in the world. If our strongest desire is for fame or riches or any earthly joy, we will never be convinced of anything spiritual, and we will never believe in God or the Bible.
But Jesus said in Matt. 5:[6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. If we truly have a hunger and thirst after righteousness, we will be like Cornelius in Acts chapter 9, whose prayers came up as a memorial before God. Since God, as we believe, is omniscient and knows our very thoughts and intents. God, through His omnipotence made arrangements for Cornelius and his gentile friends to receive the Holy Ghost.
I personally believe that God, in His omniscience, knows the heart of everyone who is truly hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and through His omnipotence will make it possible for that person, anywhere in the world, to be able to be given the Holy Ghost, which makes him or her able to be obedient to our Savior in His very strict spiritual requirements. Without that Holy Spirit we are totally unable to keep His commandments. But with that Spirit, we are given the power to live a life that is pleasing to God and His only begotten Son. In the Old Testament, the Prophet Jeremiah said in Jer. 29:[13] And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Unless a person is hungering and thirsting after reghteousness more than anything else in the world, he or she will never find that living a life that is pleasing to God and His Son is more valuable than anything we can achieve naturally.
Bro Robt.- you have touched upon one of the basic differences between Christians and atheists: righteousness. As children of God we are all urged to seek righteousness. This means to be just. The problem is perception and accountability. Being a good, kind, charitable person in one's own eyes does not JUSTIFY us in GOD'S eyes. Millions of people are law abiding, well-behaved people but their sins remain. The problem is sin. The only way to be justified in the eyes of God is to have your sins removed and your "slate wiped clean". God provided a way to do this: the sacrifice of the only holy man who ever lived. Only the blood of Jesus cleanses us and makes us just in the Father's eyes. Justification is literally an act of God which
1. declares us to be free from guilt
2. makes us acceptable to Him and
3. allows Him to count us as righteous

Those of different faiths seek to do good deeds to justify themselves, "I'm a good person", "I give to the poor" etc... This is WORKS which is the basic foundation of nearly every false religion in the world- your good deeds must outweigh your bad deeds to get to heaven. This seems right to man but fails to address the most important issue in the life of a man- sin. For the non-Christian their sins remain unforgiven and uncleansed. There is no salvation therefore no justification therefore no righteousness. Their sins remain.

Justification by faith in Jesus Christ brings the following results, all of which are missing in atheists:
1. Peace with God (Rom. 5:1)
2. Access by faith into God's grace (Rom. 5:2)
3. Standing in grace (right standing in God's eyes; also living in the grace of God) Rom. 5:2
4. Joy and hope (5:2)
5. Joy in trials and tribulations (5:3-5)
6. The love of God established in our heart (5:5-8)
7. The Holy Spirit is given to us (5:5; 8:9)
8. We are saved from wrath (5:9-10)
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Old 11-28-2013, 08:01 AM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,133,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
Bro Robt.- you have touched upon one of the basic differences between Christians and atheists: righteousness. As children of God we are all urged to seek righteousness. This means to be just. The problem is perception and accountability. Being a good, kind, charitable person in one's own eyes does not JUSTIFY us in GOD'S eyes. Millions of people are law abiding, well-behaved people but their sins remain. The problem is sin. The only way to be justified in the eyes of God is to have your sins removed and your "slate wiped clean". God provided a way to do this: the sacrifice of the only holy man who ever lived. Only the blood of Jesus cleanses us and makes us just in the Father's eyes. Justification is literally an act of God which
1. declares us to be free from guilt
2. makes us acceptable to Him and
3. allows Him to count us as righteous

Those of different faiths seek to do good deeds to justify themselves, "I'm a good person", "I give to the poor" etc... This is WORKS which is the basic foundation of nearly every false religion in the world- your good deeds must outweigh your bad deeds to get to heaven. This seems right to man but fails to address the most important issue in the life of a man- sin. For the non-Christian their sins remain unforgiven and uncleansed. There is no salvation therefore no justification therefore no righteousness. Their sins remain.

Justification by faith in Jesus Christ brings the following results, all of which are missing in atheists:
1. Peace with God (Rom. 5:1)
2. Access by faith into God's grace (Rom. 5:2)
3. Standing in grace (right standing in God's eyes; also living in the grace of God) Rom. 5:2
4. Joy and hope (5:2)
5. Joy in trials and tribulations (5:3-5)
6. The love of God established in our heart (5:5-8)
7. The Holy Spirit is given to us (5:5; 8:9)
8. We are saved from wrath (5:9-10)
Exactly what sin?

Also, you started with righteousness and moved to justification. What if I told you that I am a good person but I don't do it to justify myself. How could I? I did not ask for my existence. If I asked for my existence, then I can see why I need to justify myself.

I am good because I am a thinking person.

ETA: Not that you have to prove anything to me but I wanted to comment on the "not good enough." I grew up not being good enough so your claims or the bible's claims that being a good person is not good enough, doesn't move me.

Last edited by elyn02; 11-28-2013 at 08:15 AM..
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Old 11-28-2013, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,802 posts, read 13,350,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
Bro Robt.- you have touched upon one of the basic differences between Christians and atheists: righteousness. As children of God we are all urged to seek righteousness. This means to be just. The problem is perception and accountability. Being a good, kind, charitable person in one's own eyes does not JUSTIFY us in GOD'S eyes.
This is faux accountability. No one can empirically demonstrate what god considers righteous and in fact even the adherents to your particular religion cannot agree on what righteousness consists of to any meaningful degree of detail. So you are left with the same thing everyone else is left with: what seems right to you. If what seems right to you is to agree with the dogma of your religion, that does not absolve you of responsibility for your own decisions. If you don't believe me, then do something illegal enough to get the attention of the civil authorities. Note the source of the resulting sanctions is not god, but man (or more abstractly, society).
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Old 11-28-2013, 10:42 AM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,306,187 times
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Quote:
Bro Robt.- you have touched upon one of the basic differences between Christians and atheists: righteousness. As children of God we are all urged to seek righteousness. This means to be just. The problem is perception and accountability. Being a good, kind, charitable person in one's own eyes does not JUSTIFY us in GOD'S eyes. Millions of people are law abiding, well-behaved people but their sins remain.
Actually, the difference between Christians and atheists is that we atheists don't believe that good and decent human beings deserve to be tortured forevermore simply because those people didn't join the Christian Cult of Blood Sacrifice.

Because that IS what Christians claim even if they don't realize it. They believe that non-Christians and atheists DESERVE to be tortured forever. It demonstrates wholeheartedly the moral bankruptcy of Christianity, especially knowing there is no true justice given that even the worst people can fly up to heaven with a simple prayer of forgiveness.

Thus the whole concept isn't really about sin at all - or being good and righteous. It's about stroking the ego of a supreme being by making sure you ask HIM for forgiveness. It's not enough to simply be sorry and remorseful (something an all-knowing deity should already sense), one has to actually beg or it is eternal torment for you, buster!

It's really quite a demented belief system when one really sits down and thinks about it. Even this ...

Quote:
I believe that the Christian God is perfectly Holy and gave His Only Begotten Son to die on the cross as payment for our sins if we truly believe in Jesus as the Son of God.
... is quite ridiculous. First of all, notice our sins are wiped away only if we BELIEVE in Jesus. It says nothing about living life as a good person. The hinge upon which this door swings is all about believing in a god and joining the Big Cult. It has absolutely nothing to do with accountability or righteousness, especially since the people sinners should be seeking forgiveness from are the victims or the families of victims, NOT some celestial spy camera in the sky.

Secondly, I called it the Christian Cult of Blood Sacrifice because of how Christians revere the act of murder and blood sacrifice as something wondrous and holy. God simply could have forgiven humanity - especially since it was God's blundering that put humanity in this position in the first place. Instead, God goes through this convoluted process of forgiveness that includes deliberately putting his son on the cross ("He GAVE his only begotten son"), three days of torture, and a completely useless and redundant blood sacrifice for our so-called sins.

The irony is that Heaven will be filled to bursting with ex-cons and ex-felons who found Jesus in prison, but those who truly led good, law-abiding, selfless lives who didn't kneel to a god won't be there. How's that for justice and accountability? Especially with 2 billion plus people who honestly think everyone else deserves to be tortured forever.

Nice, huh?
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Old 11-28-2013, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,081,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
...snip... First of all, notice our sins are wiped away only if we BELIEVE in Jesus. It says nothing about living life as a good person. The hinge upon which this door swings is all about believing in a god and joining the Big Cult. It has absolutely nothing to do with accountability or righteousness, especially since the people sinners should be seeking forgiveness from are the victims or the families of victims, NOT some celestial spy camera in the sky.

Secondly, I called it the Christian Cult of Blood Sacrifice because of how Christians revere the act of murder and blood sacrifice as something wondrous and holy. God simply could have forgiven humanity - especially since it was God's blundering that put humanity in this position in the first place. Instead, God goes through this convoluted process of forgiveness that includes deliberately putting his son on the cross ("He GAVE his only begotten son"), three days of torture, and a completely useless and redundant blood sacrifice for our so-called sins.

The irony is that Heaven will be filled to bursting with ex-cons and ex-felons who found Jesus in prison, but those who truly led good, law-abiding, selfless lives who didn't kneel to a god won't be there. How's that for justice and accountability? Especially with 2 billion plus people who honestly think everyone else deserves to be tortured forever.

Nice, huh?
You've nicely nut-shelled why I find Christianity to be, quite simply - wrong. It makes no sense whatsoever.
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Old 11-28-2013, 11:07 AM
 
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I agree that Christianity makes no sense. Didn't Jesus sacrifice himself because of the unbelievers? Now the requirement is to believe once again to get into heaven. It sounds like we are right back where we started.
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Old 11-28-2013, 11:40 AM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,306,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I agree that Christianity makes no sense. Didn't Jesus sacrifice himself because of the unbelievers? Now the requirement is to believe once again to get into heaven. It sounds like we are right back where we started.
Plus original sin still remains ... at least ostensibly. Thus all of the punishments for sins we were supposedly forgiven for - such as extreme pain during childbirth or having to work the earth for our food - still exist.

Hell, even the serpents haven't gotten their feet back yet.
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