The limitations of God (America, trinity, believing, Lord)
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There are many denominations who believe that the human soul is destroyed quickly in hell thus the pain and torment is extremely short. If this were true, would it change your attitude toward God? Be honest.
It would improve my opinion of a particular god (yours) in that he would have a far more enlightened view of the purpose of punishment and what constitutes punishment that fits the crime. Under your scheme any and all offenses deserve and get the harshest possible punishment, but more than that, the sentence has no end at all, ever. If one is looking for a god, it seems like one with moral judgment superior to your own, rather than inferior, would make the most sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
It IS all about sin. Your post about stroking the ego of God shows:
1. you don't know the nature and characteristics of God, and/or
2. your hatred for Him
Nonsense. It shows the ability to assess worship for what it is. It is mindless adulation. How does it suddenly become okay simply because it is directed to one being vs another? You would doubtless object that it is not "mindless" and that this particular being is "worthy". But that this being DEMANDS worship shows NEED. If anyone NEEDS adulation and punishes those who don't give it, they are objectively needy, insecure, and need their ego stoked. Stoking that ego is just being a mindless toadie.
What you are running afoul of is a habit of putting your god into some special category different from all other beings, and, in fact, different from all other gods. You do not worship Thor, nor consider his threats to hit people who don't worship him with lightning bolts to be either credible or respectable. Why do you do anything differently for your god?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
Sin has consequences. Sin separates man from God both physically and spiritually.
This is a theological assertion from one particular religion among many.
A sociological assertion which can be proven by observation in virtually any society is that some people do things that are bad for the sustainable survival of society and we sanction people for those things and also hopefully, out of compassion, try to help them deal with their issues effectively. Most things that are bad for society are also not helpful to the happiness and contentment of the individual. So we discourage those kinds of disordered thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
There is no record of sickness in man until AFTER his sin.
Again, sin is a theological construct. So far as we know, man's physical body has always been subject to malfunctions and aging. There is no empirical evidence that people ever had biological immortality or even the extended lifespans described in Genesis. In fact, we are only now beginning to see ways that life spans could one day perhaps be markedly extended, even indefinitely. If that happens, it will be thanks to science, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
Man brought sin into human history not God. Blaming man's sin on God's "blundering" is displaced blame.
Your concept of god is (correct me if I am wrong) that he is all powerful, all knowing and all loving. Yes?
Please explain how, given the incredible human suffering that sin would cause, that he would, given the above attributes, not (to coin a phrase) move heaven and earth to prevent it? Or failing that, to stop it? How is any amount of suffering possible for god to permit if he has all the above attributes? Even if human weakness is to "blame", he knew that in advance (all-knowing) was able to compensate for it in any number of ways (all powerful) and would have wanted to (all benevolent/loving).
You must remove one or two of these three omni attributes to allow suffering to enter the picture. And remember, this is all the suffering of all humans, past, present and future. It is a non-trivial question I'm asking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
In order to do that you must humble yourself and put aside your pride. I wrote a thread about the pride and stubbornness of atheists but it was quickly locked. Apparently it was not politically correct.
The thread was locked because of the terms of service which require that people deal with one another on these forums with mutual respect. It is not respectful to perform character assassination. You do not know me or anyone else on this forum and you certainly do not know our hearts. To suggest that people believe, or not, based on pride, arrogance and stubbornness, is incredibly disrespectful. It is no less so because your god sets that sort of an example.
In any case, I have no problem setting aside my ego when I know I am wrong. That is why I set aside my ego investment in evangelical Christianity, an investment nearly four decades in the making, set aside the expectations and sensibilities of my extended family, and left evangelical Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
In the OT God showed the Israelites miracle after miracle after miracle. There just was no doubt that He was God, He was real and that the Israelite were His chose people. STILL they worshipped false Gods and sinned against the one true God in numerous ways ... We are to learn the lessons from the OT and not make the same mistakes.
These are stories and we "are to" take from them what we will or will not. It is not your place to demand that others agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
God's plan of salvation and reconciliation makes perfect sense. [It is] the only true religion that does make sense, God's mercy, grace and compassion TAKES THE PENALTY FOR YOU and a sinful race of people.
Can Islam make this claim? Buddhism? Confucianism? Paganism? Judaism? Atheism? Agnosticism? In each of these false religions, who died to save mankind? Who paid the price for their trillions of sins when He didn't have to?
In each of the religions cited (and atheism and agnosticism are not religions BTW) you are asking a non-sequitur question. They do not even believe that man needs saving in the sense that you do, so there is no requirement for a substitutionary atonement; that is a concept you inherited that is left over from polytheism, the idea that the bloodthirsty gods need to be placated. Buddhism, for example, diagnoses suffering as coming from disordered thinking, so the "salvation" is to practice techniques that encourage right thinking, right actions, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
Your sins remain.
I do not deny that I am imperfect and sometimes not my best self. The difference is that I do not adopt the notion that I should then disrespect myself because of it. Instead, I learn from my mistakes and grow as a person.
The irony is that to the extent you function in the real world, this is also what you do. The only actual difference between us is the backstory we do or don't layer over the top of it.
You have piqued my interest! I would love to hear your story if you'd like to elaborate (can be privately if you like).
Thank you for your interest.
There is really nothing extraordinary about my story but at some point, I did think it was. There was a very specific question I asked and luckily the right person read it and gave specific direction. I no longer share that question because it seems like common sense now and people don't understand why I would ask it.
Unfortunately, my history is key to understanding the question. I have no interest in discussing my history since it involves other people who cannot defend themselves. I believe I am different from you, Joint heir with Jesus, in that I did not fall into drugs, sex, etc., and then tried to find my way back. I was lost, yes, but in a different way.
So, the comment the piqued your interest is about me asking God for forgiveness. I asked him for forgiveness for leaving Christianity.
he does not have any limitations.
if he did, i surely would not be here.
i am not the easiest case he has had im sure.
its not luck if it were i would have cleaned out the casinos long ago.
he does not have any limitations.
if he did, i surely would not be here.
i am not the easiest case he has had im sure.
its not luck if it were i would have cleaned out the casinos long ago.
You surely must be something special, considering the number of starving and disease-ridden children your God has turned his back on to work on your case.
There is really nothing extraordinary about my story but at some point, I did think it was. There was a very specific question I asked and luckily the right person read it and gave specific direction. I no longer share that question because it seems like common sense now and people don't understand why I would ask it.
Unfortunately, my history is key to understanding the question. I have no interest in discussing my history since it involves other people who cannot defend themselves. I believe I am different from you, Joint heir with Jesus, in that I did not fall into drugs, sex, etc., and then tried to find my way back. I was lost, yes, but in a different way.
So, the comment the piqued your interest is about me asking God for forgiveness. I asked him for forgiveness for leaving Christianity.
I have a word for you sister:
MATT. 13:19-23 (Amplified Bible)
19 While anyone is hearing the Word of the kingdom and does not grasp and comprehend it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the roadside.
20 As for what was sown on thin (rocky) soil, this is he who hears the Word and at once welcomes and accepts it with joy;
21 Yet it has no real root in him, but is temporary (inconstant, lasts but a little while); and when affliction or trouble or persecution comes on account of the Word, at once he is caused to stumble [he is repelled and begins to distrust and desert Him Whom he ought to trust and obey] and he falls away.
22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the Word, but the cares of the world and the pleasure and delight and glamour and deceitfulness of riches choke and suffocate the Word, and it yields no fruit.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the Word and grasps and comprehends it; he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred times as much as was sown, in another sixty times as much, and in another thirty.
1 JOHN 1: 3-10 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
3 What we have seen and [ourselves] heard, we are also telling you, so that you too may realize and enjoy fellowship as partners and partakers with us. And [this] fellowship that we have [which is a distinguishing mark of Christians] is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
4 And we are now writing these things to you so that our joy [in seeing you included] may be full [and your joy may be complete].
5 And this is the message [the message of promise] which we have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him at all [no, not in any way].
6 [So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents].
7 But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].
8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].
1 John 2:24-29 Amplified Bible (AMP)
24 As for you, keep in your hearts what you have heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the first dwells and remains in you, then you will dwell in the Son and in the Father [always].25 And this is what He Himself has promised us—the life, the eternal [life].
26 I write this to you with reference to those who would deceive you [seduce and lead you astray].
27 But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
28 And now, little children, abide (live, remain permanently) in Him, so that when He is made visible, we may have and enjoy perfect confidence (boldness, assurance) and not be ashamed and shrink from Him at His coming.
29 If you know (perceive and are sure) that He [Christ] is [absolutely] righteous [conforming to the Father’s will in purpose, thought, and action], you may also know (be sure) that everyone who does righteously [and is therefore in like manner conformed to the divine will] is born (begotten) of Him [God].
God is reaching out to you right now, calling you back to Him. It's never too late while you are still breathing.
Last edited by Joint heir with jesus; 12-01-2013 at 11:09 AM..
Reason: spacing
19 While anyone is hearing the Word of the kingdom and does not grasp and comprehend it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the roadside.
20 As for what was sown on thin (rocky) soil, this is he who hears the Word and at once welcomes and accepts it with joy;
21 Yet it has no real root in him, but is temporary (inconstant, lasts but a little while); and when affliction or trouble or persecution comes on account of the Word, at once he is caused to stumble [he is repelled and begins to distrust and desert Him Whom he ought to trust and obey] and he falls away.
22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the Word, but the cares of the world and the pleasure and delight and glamour and deceitfulness of riches choke and suffocate the Word, and it yields no fruit.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the Word and grasps and comprehends it; he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred times as much as was sown, in another sixty times as much, and in another thirty.
1 JOHN 1: 3-10 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
3 What we have seen and [ourselves] heard, we are also telling you, so that you too may realize and enjoy fellowship as partners and partakers with us. And [this] fellowship that we have [which is a distinguishing mark of Christians] is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
4 And we are now writing these things to you so that our joy [in seeing you included] may be full [and your joy may be complete].
5 And this is the message [the message of promise] which we have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him at all [no, not in any way].
6 [So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents].
7 But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].
8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].
1 John 2:24-29 Amplified Bible (AMP)
24 As for you, keep in your hearts what you have heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the first dwells and remains in you, then you will dwell in the Son and in the Father [always].25 And this is what He Himself has promised us—the life, the eternal [life].
26 I write this to you with reference to those who would deceive you [seduce and lead you astray].
27 But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
28 And now, little children, abide (live, remain permanently) in Him, so that when He is made visible, we may have and enjoy perfect confidence (boldness, assurance) and not be ashamed and shrink from Him at His coming.
29 If you know (perceive and are sure) that He [Christ] is [absolutely] righteous [conforming to the Father’s will in purpose, thought, and action], you may also know (be sure) that everyone who does righteously [and is therefore in like manner conformed to the divine will] is born (begotten) of Him [God].
God is reaching out to you right now, calling you back to Him. It's never too late while you are still breathing.
Excellent post. Let us also remember the Apostle John's words in 1 John 2:[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
In our natural state, it is impossible to keep His commandments, but if we have the Holy Ghost abiding as a gift in our souls which God gives to those WHO OBEY HIM, we receive power to resist Satan by not committing grievous premeditated acts of disobedience to our Savior and Lord.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Circular reasoning with no inputs other than self-referential scripture. If the scriptures forbid doubt, or rational discourse, on no other basis than that the scriptures forbid doubt and rational discourse, you are simply telling people what to believe and forbidding them even to believe it for good reason (because, say, there is evidence to support it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince
In our natural state, it is impossible to keep His commandments, but if we have the Holy Ghost abiding as a gift in our souls which God gives to those WHO OBEY HIM, we receive power to resist Satan by not committing grievous premeditated acts of disobedience to our Savior and Lord.
Circular reasoning again. In order for God's spirit to dwell in you, you have to obey him, but by your own admission you can't obey him without that spirit. Round and round it goes.
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