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So what you are saying is ,
If I found the cure for say cancer, I have no business sharing that information with the rest of the world, because by your reasonings , people need to find out those answers on their own .
Even though I cannot substantiate it , other than the cure I found works on my self and the few that introduced it to me, It is not my business to let others know the potential available to them ..
I see .
I'll remember that.
Would you give your children a medical cure that does not have any solid evidence for it's safety and effectiveness?
Hmmm...Perhaps we should hold religious beliefs to the same standard as we do medical treatments?
In that case, an Evangelical cannot be tolerant. If their purpose is to save souls from eternal damnation, they cannot agree to allow you to keep fishing on your side of the river. You have to come over to their side.
Which ends up ruining the fishing. Especially if each feels obligated to save the other.
Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,
The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?
No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?
Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?
Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?
Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?
If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?
Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
Use the golden rule. To whatever degree you are willing to sit and listen while others attempt to persuade you that their religious beliefs are valid and yours are not, that is the willingness you should suspect will be found in others when the mood to "share" strikes you.
If you spend exactly as much time trying to convert others as you spend listening to others trying to convert you, then some fairness is established.
And in that every zealot believes in the wisdom and necessity of his or her doctrine, you cannot really justify spreading your version of the "truth" on the basis of the validity and importance of the message.
Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,
The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?
No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?
Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?
Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?
Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?
If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?
Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
Endanger people or break laws? Of course not. On the other hand, we are guaranteed the right to religion in the US Constitution.
Is it immoral for someone to tell me I CANT practice my religion? Isn't that a statement bout religion? What determines who is right?
Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,
The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?
No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?
Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?
Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?
Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?
If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?
Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
You may feel a moral obligation, which is not the same as having the right. You have to determine what is or isn't your moral obligation as long as you pursue that morality non-violently or at the imposition of the rights of others.
Is it immoral for someone to tell me I CANT practice my religion? Isn't that a statement bout religion? What determines who is right?
It is illegal in the US to prevent you from practicing your religion. The question is the definition of "practice". Does that word apply to having church services, and preaching to your own members without fear of retribution or interference? Or does it extend to invading people's personal space to hector them into considering your belief system? If so, then to what extent?
I treat proselytization as I treat salesmanship -- proselytization is just a $25 word that means "salesmanship of religion". This is how I view it: if I want / need a vacuum cleaner I will compare vacuum cleaners via online reviews and either buy one online or in person. I do not need or want some random person knocking on my door on the outside chance I might want one or with the misplaced notion that their product is so orgasmic that the only reason I don't rush out and buy one immediately is the small detail that I haven't heard of it yet. Similarly, if I want religious teaching or camaraderie or services I will compare religions and then contact the ones I am interested in to learn about them on my own terms. I do not need or want some random person knocking on my door on the outside chance I might be interested in a particular religion.
I think that the door to door god sales business is like a vacuum cleaner salesperson who believes their brand of vacuum is the only one that actually picks up dirt, and that the consequences of a carpet that is not spotless is that the person's house will eventually explode, immolating all within it. So there is this element of desperation in conveying the pitch ... it is not just a matter of failing to close the sale, it is the belief that in failing to close, you are somehow condemning your mark to a horrific fate. This is all the more remarkable in that no one has ever seen a house explode due to a dirty carpet.
So although I understand that often a door to door god salesperson is driven by this overwrought imperative to save me from certain destruction, alas, it doesn't change my right to be left alone and my right of freedom of association. Besides, if any religion was THAT compelling it wouldn't have to resort to such tactics -- there would be a line of people waiting to get in. I know all about the "narrow is the way to god and broad is the way that leads to destruction" but for all the flowery and extraordinary benefits religion claims for its adherents, it makes no sense that it would be such an uphill battle to (1) get people to sign on and (2) get them to show up for regular attendance, (3) follow the rules and (4) contribute to the coffers or that (5) it should require so much guilting, shaming, and haranguing to sustain the whole thing.
So to the point of the OP, I'm not so sure "is it right to spread our beliefs" is the correct question -- it's "why aren't our beliefs a no-brainer in the first place?"
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,920,960 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Endanger people or break laws? Of course not. On the other hand, we are guaranteed the right to religion in the US Constitution.
Is it immoral for someone to tell me I CANT practice my religion? Isn't that a statement bout religion? What determines who is right?
You have and should have the right to practice your religion... As long as there is no physical harm brought to others.
As do Jews Muslims Wiccans Buddhists or neo pagans.
Just don't try and impose your ideas on the public... Prayer in school, ten commandments posted in public buildings or attempts to implement sharia law.
It is illegal in the US to prevent you from practicing your religion. The question is the definition of "practice". Does that word apply to having church services, and preaching to your own members without fear of retribution or interference? Or does it extend to invading people's personal space to hector them into considering your belief system? If so, then to what extent?
I treat proselytization as I treat salesmanship -- proselytization is just a $25 word that means "salesmanship of religion". This is how I view it: if I want / need a vacuum cleaner I will compare vacuum cleaners via online reviews and either buy one online or in person. I do not need or want some random person knocking on my door on the outside chance I might want one or with the misplaced notion that their product is so orgasmic that the only reason I don't rush out and buy one immediately is the small detail that I haven't heard of it yet. Similarly, if I want religious teaching or camaraderie or services I will compare religions and then contact the ones I am interested in to learn about them on my own terms. I do not need or want some random person knocking on my door on the outside chance I might be interested in a particular religion.
I think that the door to door god sales business is like a vacuum cleaner salesperson who believes their brand of vacuum is the only one that actually picks up dirt, and that the consequences of a carpet that is not spotless is that the person's house will eventually explode, immolating all within it. So there is this element of desperation in conveying the pitch ... it is not just a matter of failing to close the sale, it is the belief that in failing to close, you are somehow condemning your mark to a horrific fate. This is all the more remarkable in that no one has ever seen a house explode due to a dirty carpet.
So although I understand that often a door to door god salesperson is driven by this overwrought imperative to save me from certain destruction, alas, it doesn't change my right to be left alone and my right of freedom of association. Besides, if any religion was THAT compelling it wouldn't have to resort to such tactics -- there would be a line of people waiting to get in. I know all about the "narrow is the way to god and broad is the way that leads to destruction" but for all the flowery and extraordinary benefits religion claims for its adherents, it makes no sense that it would be such an uphill battle to (1) get people to sign on and (2) get them to show up for regular attendance, (3) follow the rules and (4) contribute to the coffers or that (5) it should require so much guilting, shaming, and haranguing to sustain the whole thing.
So to the point of the OP, I'm not so sure "is it right to spread our beliefs" is the correct question -- it's "why aren't our beliefs a no-brainer in the first place?"
I do enjoy the clarity and logic of your posts, mordant . . . even though we have come to different conclusions. You have a fine mind. It is sad that it has been subjected to unnecessary expectations and disappointments in the name of God. I genuinely respect your thinking . . . and the analogy to houses exploding from dirty carpets is absolutely brilliant! Peace brother.
What is the difference between coerced religious conversion, and rape or murder? All of these take away from others without their consent.
If you want converts, there is one, and only one legitimate way. Introduce your religion to other people, explain your beliefs, and let them decide for themselves.
What enticed me to start this thread was a recent news story.
Before I brought up the Story I wanted to be certain it is clear I am not attacking Christianity but rather I am attacking what I see as irresponsibility.
This is the story:
Quote:
On a rainy afternoon last Spring, American pastor Eric Foley and his wife stood in a muddy field near the North Korea border and prayed – their hands clasped to a 40-foot homemade balloon that would carry Bibles to the communist dictatorship's underground Christians.
I am not concerned that it is Bibles being dropped. I would feel the same if it was the Qur'an, the Bhagvad-Gita, the Torah or any religious scripture. For that matter even if it was telephone books or math text books.
What I am appalled at is the blatant disobedience of a nations law and the total irresponsibility of using 40 foot long Hydrogen filled balloons. If they had been filled with propane, acetylene or LPG gas most people would immediately see the stupidity and danger. Most people seem to be unaware that hydrogen is much more explosive than those 3 gases. Although Hydrogen Balloons are illegal in many nations.
I feel this is a case of Evangelizing being carried to an extremely dangerous level.
There are other factors about this I do not like, but the use of home made hydrogen balloons is an assault by potential incendiary bombs. This should be considered criminal negligence. Especially since non-Explosive Helium could be used.
All of the things I stated in my OP are being done in the name of proselytizing.
Do they have the right to do this? Is this a morally ethical means of Evangelizing of any religious persuasion?
This is the type of thing I am speaking of in the OP. Do they have the right to do this?
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