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Old 11-11-2013, 02:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 14,594,197 times
Reputation: 7477

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Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,

The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?

No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?

Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?

Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?

Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?

If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?

Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
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Old 11-11-2013, 02:51 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 5,176,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,

The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?

No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?

Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?

Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?

Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?

If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?

Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
What is definitely right is for us to grow and spread our understanding. You really have to take all those affected by your actions into account. Rights are what you fight for and get angry about, it has a lot to do with feelings of autonomy. I doubt many would like or appreciate for you to "use any means" against them; how would you tell at what line abuse begins? You must understand your humanity first, you do not know. If you don't want your nation's laws broken I wouldn't suggest you rebegin a standard that might ultimately come back to bite you. I don't really think people have established believes, just tentative ones. leading others usually requires their consent the and consent of their guardians.
if you feel that endangering people is worth it, then I don't see what you would have dissonance about, it seems your mind is thinking about whether to value worldly damage more than your ideas of possible afterlife. Doing illegal things, even if it feels moral and your conscious is clear, is very dangerous. public facilities are supposed to be equal access (in my understanding and personal wishes), so you'd have to be ready to allow others to do that same right back, or to be more critical during the process than those accustomed to it.
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Old 11-11-2013, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 14,594,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
What is definitely right is for us to grow and spread our understanding. You really have to take all those affected by your actions into account. Rights are what you fight for and get angry about, it has a lot to do with feelings of autonomy. I doubt many would like or appreciate for you to "use any means" against them; how would you tell at what line abuse begins? You must understand your humanity first, you do not know. If you don't want your nation's laws broken I wouldn't suggest you rebegin a standard that might ultimately come back to bite you. I don't really think people have established believes, just tentative ones. leading others usually requires their consent the and consent of their guardians.
if you feel that endangering people is worth it, then I don't see what you would have dissonance about, it seems your mind is thinking about whether to value worldly damage more than your ideas of possible afterlife. Doing illegal things, even if it feels moral and your conscious is clear, is very dangerous. public facilities are supposed to be equal access (in my understanding and personal wishes), so you'd have to be ready to allow others to do that same right back, or to be more critical during the process than those accustomed to it.
I am just going to address what I see as a very poignant sentence.

Quote:
if you feel that endangering people is worth it, then I don't see what you would have dissonance about, it seems your mind is thinking about whether to value worldly damage more than your ideas of possible afterlife.
I think that just may be the compelling (force / thought process / Drive) for proselytizing.

I can see that would resolve any dissonance between societal morality and divine obligation.

Just using an example. All religion except for the State religion is illegal in North Korea. the bringing of any foreign scripture into North Korea is punishable by death. Possession of such material is punishable by death.

Now if I were to choose to smuggle Qur'ans into North Korea at which point does the means justify the end. If my goal is for each North Korean Muslim to have a copy of the Qur'an and the only way I can get it to them is by illegal smuggling am I justifying deceit if the end result is getting Qur'ans to North Korean Muslims?
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Old 11-11-2013, 03:57 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,640,898 times
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I see nothing morally right about attempting to spread unsubstantiated ideas. If you spread as "true" something for which you have literally no support for then you are only one small side step from outright lying.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 14,594,197 times
Reputation: 7477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I see nothing morally right about attempting to spread unsubstantiated ideas. If you spread as "true" something for which you have literally no support for then you are only one small side step from outright lying.
Your input is appreciated.

To carry this a step further. If the means I choose to smuggle Qur'ans into North Korea was potentially dangerous, such as flying them in by Hydrogen filled Balloons. would you consider it criminal negligence as hydrogen filled balloons are explosive?
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:21 AM
 
Location: california
6,281 posts, read 5,518,156 times
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So what you are saying is ,
If I found the cure for say cancer, I have no business sharing that information with the rest of the world, because by your reasonings , people need to find out those answers on their own .
Even though I cannot substantiate it , other than the cure I found works on my self and the few that introduced it to me, It is not my business to let others know the potential available to them ..
I see .
I'll remember that.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:29 AM
 
7,379 posts, read 7,066,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Your input is appreciated.

To carry this a step further. If the means I choose to smuggle Qur'ans into North Korea was potentially dangerous, such as flying them in by Hydrogen filled Balloons. would you consider it criminal negligence as hydrogen filled balloons are explosive?
If you're endangering the lives of others, no. It all comes down to property rights, IMO. Morally, you can do what you want to do with your property, so long as it doesn't violate the property rights of others, which includes forcing others to watch. You can say what you want, advocate what you want, buy billboards, peacefully protest, use public airwaves, make signs, etc..., but you cannot use others' private or public resources to promote your religion.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 14,594,197 times
Reputation: 7477
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
So what you are saying is ,
If I found the cure for say cancer, I have no business sharing that information with the rest of the world, because by your reasonings , people need to find out those answers on their own .
Even though I cannot substantiate it , other than the cure I found works on my self and the few that introduced it to me, It is not my business to let others know the potential available to them ..
I see .
I'll remember that.
Suppose your "Cure" required the people to do something illegal in their nation. Would you be justified in spreading your "Cure" through lies, deceit, or illegal means?

I feel you would be morally obligated to share your findings with those who desire to benefit from it but that it would be immoral to impose it upon those who have no desire to partake of it.

In the same way I feel obligated to share Islam with those who desire to learn about it, but I have no right to expect non-Muslims to participate in helping me spread Islam, nor do I have the right to use unscrupulous means to spread Islam to non-Muslims.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:46 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,625,563 times
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If religious folk were somehow forced to divulge the entire history of various religions and not just their own when evangelising, that would level the playing fields. The problem is that many evangelists do not have a clue as to the origins of their faith let alone other beliefs.

Is the situation in North Korea ideal? Hell no! It really just goes to show how even in the modern era, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Placing a Koran in a NK hands is an ultimate death sentence as they are all watching each other to see who deviates from the great leader's script.

Were any religious influence able to initiate a rebellion, a power vacuum would be formed and said religion would come in and take over and in time would be no better that it is right now. We have seen that happen in the past.
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 14,594,197 times
Reputation: 7477
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
If religious folk were somehow forced to divulge the entire history of various religions and not just their own when evangelising, that would level the playing fields. The problem is that many evangelists do not have a clue as to the origins of their faith let alone other beliefs.

Is the situation in North Korea ideal? Hell no! It really just goes to show how even in the modern era, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Placing a Koran in a NK hands is an ultimate death sentence as they are all watching each other to see who deviates from the great leader's script.

Were any religious influence able to initiate a rebellion, a power vacuum would be formed and said religion would come in and take over and in time would be no better that it is right now. We have seen that happen in the past.
Good points especially this line:

Quote:
If religious folk were somehow forced to divulge the entire history of various religions and not just their own when evangelising, that would level the playing fields.
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