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Old 12-08-2013, 08:50 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Going on from my last post..the thread seems to have gone onto apologetics and polemics in general, so I guess this is permitted.. I was thinking of the Yu tube on apologetics...here - I'll give a linkie..


The Atheist Experience #662 - The three pillars of apologetics 2/9 - YouTube

and the speaker mentioned that it would bother him if his arguments were repeatedly shown up to be invalid, but it doesn't seem to bother believers at all. If every one of their arguments is shown up to be invalid, they just go on to the next, and can even use the same arguments sometime later on.

I think the reason for this is that it doesn't bother them if their 'human logic and wisdom' arguments fail to stand up, because those methods are merely a means to an end. Their conviction of rightness is not based on the soundness of evidence, but on the conviction of faith. They are convinced that they are 'Right', even if they lose every argument. They are right even if others argue from their own faith -based religious convictions that they are dead wrong.

The methods of argument are not intended to establish a sound case, but to support the conviction of Belief in God. Not even religion, as some who use this method do not even need to have any truck with organized religion, but their beef seems to be that we goddless bastards do not share this faith - belief in 'God'.

The method of apologetics is to talk the other side into defeat or at least to a draw (and to a theist a draw is a win as it makes the theist case look equally valid) and any method is ok, including outright lies, since the Faith is right and the methods of arguing others into faith is justified, even if illogic, nonscience, fallacy and untruth is employed.

'Hey, what do a few lies matter if some souls are saved?'

It is even irrelevant that other believers have different views. This self -belief, raised to divine level (I am convinced that is what it is, and the You -tube hints at this puffing up of the self -identity as a god created very much in their own image) is the faith based conviction is that: "I am right. I am getting it from God that I am right. I am right even if everyone else disagrees. I am right even if I change my mind, repeatedly. I am right even if all my arguments are knocked down. I am right even if I believe something that is contradicted by the Bible itself." It is all a question of 'interpretation'. Which means reading into the Bible whatever you want and rewriting what it says, if needed (1).

I truly believe that this is what is used instead of the tools of validated data and sound logic, and it all has to do with feelings of felf worth on an individual and collective level.

(1) if this seems an unfair accusation, let me give a mild example. The resurrection accounts are greatly discrepant, but I have read many attempts to reconcile the accounts, one in a very interesting paperback having everyone scuttling back and forth to see one angel on a rock, another inside, again two inside and yet again two more inside saying different things. It didn't go as far as (as I read in one apologetics) having three different Marys on each occasion, but that is why the effort collapsed, in the end, and one by a stout effort here on the boards to make it work by constructing a table wherein the angels in John were ripped out of the time after the women reported back to the disciples and placed smack at dawn, before they reported. and the different speeches was overlooked, I recall, but that is no problem. Discrepant events are woven together into one. Just as the discrepant deaths of Judas are fiddled together.
This is what I call 'rewriting'. If the Bible says something that doesn't work, rewrite it until it does, with a bit of fiddling. And this is a mild couple of examples that can pass for legitimate historical interpretation - all in the interests of supporting faith.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-08-2013 at 09:20 AM..
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
THEN your analogy would work, but it would then only support atheism, not tear it down. As I say, wrong yet again. Do you really not know how to construct a sound argument, or are you continually hoping to bamboozle us into swallowing an unsound one?
I'd say the latter, as he brought up this exact same argument in another thread some time ago, it was just as effectively rebutted, and here he is again.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:49 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,926 posts, read 3,616,171 times
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Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Again...you make good points Shirina.
Our last "off topic exchange" didn't survive. Hope you saw my last response...I explained how you had changed my viewpoint.

All you say here is indicative of "The Way it Really Is".
I'm neither Religious or Atheist...so I see it all from the outside. You do give a good general description of the current scene...here in the U.S., anyway.
BUT...if the Atheists are to stay true to their typically stated convictions...they will have to resist becoming much like what they often protest. That will be easier said than done. "Fighting fire with fire" is known to be effective for many things. This board is a micro example of this phenomenon.
Time will tell how it all turns out.
Howdy, Gldn Rule ... yes I did manage to read your last response to me perhaps an hour before that whole conversation was deleted. I'm glad I didn't respond right away or it would have been wasted.

I hear what you're saying about being careful not to allow atheism to become too militant and too hostile. The Christians, of course, think everything we do is militant and hostile, so atheists will have to police their own ranks. That's an incredibly hard thing to do because, chances are, there will be some aspects of militancy and hostility that we'll agree with.

Atheists will have to learn how to choose our battles wisely and not go charging after every vaguely religious thing out there. Trying to get "God" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance was a fool's errand, in my opinion; atheists should focus on religious edicts that actually affect people, not on the symbolism like "God" on our money or Nativity scenes on a small town courthouse lawn. Trying to overturn anti-gay marriage definitions SHOULD be something we atheists should focus on because those laws and amendments are literally forcing people to live by the Book of Leviticus.

I suppose we will see what the future holds, but truth be told, I'm not entirely optimistic. I fear that stupidity is really winning the day in this country, and not just in a religious sense.

But I should leave off here before I get on a roll again.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I suppose we will see what the future holds, but truth be told, I'm not entirely optimistic. I fear that stupidity is really winning the day in this country, and not just in a religious sense.
I choose to be optimistic although I have no rational basis for it. I guess life is deeply disappointing enough on its own terms and I just can't take on existential angst atop that.

My basic thinking is that we are in the midst of the dying gasp of mindless religious and political fundamentalism. It is as dangerous as a mortally wounded snake, and it may thrash around for some time like a beheaded chicken, but if for no other reason than bare statistics I feel its days must be numbered. WASP hegemony in the US is waning fast; WASPs will no longer be the majority in this country by 2020 or so, depending on who you talk to. America has always been a melting pot, it has just refused to assimilate non-white races or races that held onto aspects of their native culture while having pretenses to citizenship. America has always been about religious freedom, too, it has just refused to assimilate and tolerate the areligious. But it is inevitable that the components of the melting pot that have floated in the melting pot like unwanted turds for so long would themselves melt and be absorbed. That is happening, whether some folks like it or not.

Finally, most of fundamentalism, both religious and political, is at odds with reality. Reality has a way of beating the nonsense out of you eventually. I believe history and time are on the side of rationalism. That's not to say that nutty ideas will not always exist, but that even the nuttiness in society eventually gets diluted and moderated. Our nutty ideas today are tame compared to, say, 150 years ago when the US Congress was seriously debating whether African-Americans were equal to whites in fact, or just equal in the eyes of the law.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:15 PM
 
6,904 posts, read 4,345,727 times
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Wrong yet again, Glnrule. In fact stamp collectors and people of all pursuits do engage in rather inappropriately furious debate about their subject. One might call it an obsession, even an iconic pursuit and the most important thing in their life. But 'religion' is stretching the mataphor too much, especially if 'religion' is used in a very specific sense, when talking about organized churches and god -claims.

So your argument or analogy only works, if the stamp collectors were actively campaigning against persons not connected with philately who were trying to stop them collecting, getting stamps banned because of some Holy Book saying they are an abomination (while using the specious pretext of health hazards of licking the backs of stamps) and even suggesting that collectors were not fit to hold political office or be citizens.

Then the philatelists would be as furiously combatative as we militant atheists are, and for an equally good reason - that they are being treated unfairly by a larger group with some daft and irrational ideas about stamps, quite apart from the need to put such daft ideas right.

THEN your analogy would work, but it would then only support atheism, not tear it down. As I say, wrong yet again. Do you really not know how to construct a sound argument, or are you continually hoping to bamboozle us into swallowing an unsound one?
You forget Arq...I neither embrace any organized religion nor am I Atheist.
My perception consists of taking the more broad definition of the title "GOD" than just Deities (part of any full, standard "GOD" definition AND is contextually applicable)...and assigning it to what I perceive merits the title.
I personally hold the most strict and lofty requirements for assignment of the title...though that is not required to still be logical as per my view. I view all there is, inclusive of every phenomena and all attributes and characteristics as meritorious of being titled "GOD"...but it doesn't necessarily have to be that.
There is NOTHING "illogical" about my perception and view...if one acknowledges the title "God" goes beyond just Religious Deities, like I do. It "follows" just fine...with a valid premise, flawless argument, and thus true conclusion.

On the other hand...both the Religious Deity Crew (Those that worship the "StampGod" they claim exists, as per the analogy) and the Atheist Crew (Those that claim that no God(s), "StampGod" or otherwise, exist , as per the analogy) have illogic (from a "Pedigree Logic" standpoint) based platforms.
Both take a flawed premise of "no evidence" (whether for or against the existence of "StampGod" or any other Deity genre of "God") and draw conclusions from it, that they then use to determine what position to take on the matter.

At one time everyone joined in with the illogic of Religious Deity Worship...through indoctrination, or actual and/or implied threat.
Of late...the illogic of Atheism has sprung up where the threat has been eased or no longer present.

From the outside looking in...I don't see them as much different.
They both have that "We are the only REALLY right way to think" coat they are ever covered in...and are both good at failing to see their platforms don't have a logical basis.

The Religious have had organized groups for thousands of years.
The Atheists are just getting started...and I hope they don't follow suit with the "finger pointing" and exclusionary judgments...but, if this board is any indication of how they will "develop", I don't hold out much hope, and see them ending up as just another bunch of judgmental, finger-pointers like all the other illogically based views in the mix.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:32 PM
 
6,904 posts, read 4,345,727 times
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Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Howdy, Gldn Rule ... yes I did manage to read your last response to me perhaps an hour before that whole conversation was deleted. I'm glad I didn't respond right away or it would have been wasted.

I hear what you're saying about being careful not to allow atheism to become too militant and too hostile. The Christians, of course, think everything we do is militant and hostile, so atheists will have to police their own ranks. That's an incredibly hard thing to do because, chances are, there will be some aspects of militancy and hostility that we'll agree with.

Atheists will have to learn how to choose our battles wisely and not go charging after every vaguely religious thing out there. Trying to get "God" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance was a fool's errand, in my opinion; atheists should focus on religious edicts that actually affect people, not on the symbolism like "God" on our money or Nativity scenes on a small town courthouse lawn. Trying to overturn anti-gay marriage definitions SHOULD be something we atheists should focus on because those laws and amendments are literally forcing people to live by the Book of Leviticus.

I suppose we will see what the future holds, but truth be told, I'm not entirely optimistic. I fear that stupidity is really winning the day in this country, and not just in a religious sense.

But I should leave off here before I get on a roll again.
Yes...people seem to have a penchant for "dumb stuff".

As much as I think it is really cool that there are gathering places springing up for "fellowship" among those of a Atheist/Agnostic view...it could go the wrong way and become everything they now commonly rally against.

I don't see the huge "threat" of religion in the U.S. in these current times...not like what is put forth by some. Some say the religious would make this a theocracy if they could.
But, if we really think about it..they COULD do that...even with the current system. It isn't like they already aren't "organized" to act en mass if that was their true propensity.
With numbers like they have (80% of the electorate) they could vote out whoever they want out, and vote in whoever they want in...at the smallest local level to the national level. They could so heavily skew the Federal Government they could pass any and all legislation/laws they wanted...even amend the Constitution to whatever they wanted it to say we had to do/be...override any Presidential veto if they hadn't voted their own person in yet.
BUT...even though they easily COULD...they DON'T.
I submit...that is the proof they are not REALLY the evil dictators some would try to claim them to be.

Though I will warn the Anti-Theist genre of Atheists..."push" them and "contest" them at your sure peril.
At this point they are not yet annoyed enough to "take action". But I predict...if they are continued to be what they see as "Forced to go against their sacred beliefs"...they will retaliate once they have had enough.
I've written about this many times...it's basic human nature to have your way if you can get it or compel it.
A few more rulings by government officials telling private business persons that they have to do business with people they don't want to do business with...and you will see them get together and act to change it.
This government is a "Majority Rules" system...and they will vote to throw out the people that they don't want...and vote in the people that will vote their agenda.
For example---Don't use the government to force the religious/strict-hetero bakery owners to bake a cake for the homo wedding...just have homos start a bakery to serve that market or go where the owners don't care.
Just like they did within the bar/tavern and nightclub industry...they created their own places ("gay" bars) to do business...they didn't cause problems by legally forcing the acceptance of their presence at the places they knew would take exception.
I've been in the porn business for almost 30 years...I don't try to legally force the local religious organizations to sell me advertising space in their brochures...even though I know that is an excellent market for me (that's funny...but true)...just to attempt to have my way about it.
Even though they regularly put fliers on the staff and customers cars to "repent from their sinful/lustful ways and be *righteous*".

Believe me...if this kinda stuff keeps up it is gonna get really REALLY ugly.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
You know how much I love it when you guys break out that ridiculous analogy of "Atheism is a Religion as much as Not Collecting Stamps is a Hobby"?

I posted this before to address the matter...it is applicable here now as well. Remember it?:
As respects "Not Collecting Stamps" being a hobby: Not necessarily...if they merely didn't collect stamps.
BUT!...if they went on stamp-collecting forums and put up thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of posts criticizing them for being into stamps and saying things like, "You idiot! You paid how much for that?! It's just a page of perforated paper with ink on the front and dry adhesive on the back! How ignorant can you be?! Hope you get thousands of dollars of enjoyment looking at it!"(add smacking-head Smiley)...THEN you most certainly would have the hobby (could even be called the "religion") of not-collecting stamps.

When the "No God Crew" quits pretending not to understand the "religion" aspect of what they are doing...and has the guts to cop to it when they try to push their "Atheist Concept and Worldview" harder than Geico pushes its insurance...then it might enable an honest and open discussion.

But it's kinda a "Catch-22" for me...because I would never want them to actually stop with the snark and the (usually lame and childish, but comical) attempt at insults. It would create a terrible "Amusement Deficit" if they ever did.
And the pigeon knocks over all the chess pieces, poops on the board and claims victory............
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:57 PM
 
6,904 posts, read 4,345,727 times
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Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
And the pigeon knocks over all the chess pieces, poops on the board and claims victory............
And then there are the guys that have enough sense and wisdom going in not to play chess with pigeons.
Offer up another FIFTEEN THOUSAND posts to your religions' Deity ***NOGODAH*** Ash Nat.

"NOGODAH"!!!!!!! I just invented that!
That can replace The Flying Spaghetti Monster & Invisible Pink Unicorn as the Fundie Atheist's Deity to supplicate to...it's more "standard".
They will reserve you a special corner of the meeting room for worship services.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:44 AM
 
5,460 posts, read 6,157,963 times
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Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Well...being that this is a Religion Forum...it would figure I would post about that.
I'm sure there are those that post on a jillion different forums, about a jillion different things.

The oft proffered No God Crew analogy of--Atheism is to Religion as Not Collecting Stamps is to Hobby...is the comparison that has the disingenuous component.

As I've said...Not Collecting Stamps isn't a hobby, if you merely don't collect stamps.
BUT...if you spend more time getting on the case of, or complaining about, people who do collect stamps, then the people who collect stamps spend collecting...then you have turned Not Collecting Stamps into a hobby.

If all Atheists did was merely not believe that God(s) exist...then it certainly wouldn't equate to a religion.

The issue I have, is with the, "What?!! Who, me?!! I'm Atheist, and that is nothing more than non-belief in Deities!", proclamations...from those that have been on forums like this for years, put up thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of posts, criticizing and even mocking & insulting an opposing viewpoint, while at the same time going on, and on, and on, about the superior virtues of their own viewpoint...with "reps" back and forth to others that post in agreement. Even claiming that to hold the opposing viewpoint is tantamount to being delusional...anyone teaching it to their children should be arrested and prosecuted for abuse...and even go so far as to say the opposing viewpoint is "the greatest ever threat to mankind".
Some here belong to organized groups that publicly promote the Atheist concept, even to the degree of helping found organizations of that nature on a national level.

My point is not about how or why Atheists don't embrace the opposing view...but how they hold and promote their own views.

Don't try to feign mere disconnection to the opposing concept...and claim that is all it is.
If you are going to come to the table and play cards--Make your call...Bet your hand...and then lay it out on the table for everyone to see. If you win the pot--you win the pot...if you don't--you don't. But don't show up to play every day for years upon years...and then claim not to hold an intense and arduously focused (read: religiously held) interest in it.
Still going on and on and on and on about religion, I see. Thanks for demonstrating my point that believers just can't keep this stuff to themselves - so it is no surprise that others comment on it.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:36 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
46,487 posts, read 13,765,990 times
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Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
You forget Arq...I neither embrace any organized religion nor am I Atheist.
You can't do right for doing wrong can you? Just like your earlier post dragging in a subject -changing Red herring that it wasn't your fault that Religionists were being pushy, whether you are or are not atheist is IRRELEVANT to your supposed discrediting of the stamp -collector analogy. Did you seriously think that I wouldn't see that?

As to the rest, you are welcome to take 'God' as whatever you wish. If you take issue with atheists not believing in any 'God' concept deserving of the label, you shall be jumped on.

If religion continues to make claims about god or interfere in our lives because of what they believe, we shall jump on them, too. So you can save your breath warning us.

While any helpful criticism about the way we do this is welcome, we are not going to stop, apologise for doing it or be told that somehow we are wrong.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-09-2013 at 09:52 AM..
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