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Old 08-02-2016, 12:29 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,571,363 times
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lmao at "buying a ticket". yeah, being good is better than being a jerk.

we are wrong to assume that the "accountability" component is not needed. That angle is as bad as the "born bad" thing they toss around. Anybody claiming these do not understand the "Human element".

what and how accountability is open for discussion.
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 331,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Interesting.A reading of Paul suggests that you can buy a ticket. You subscribe and pay your fees and, provided you don't break the rules in small print on the back of the stub, you are guaranteed In. Was he wrong?
That would be a most twisted reading of Paul contradicting nearly everything he says. What Paul says is that salvation is a gift and what we are asked to do is to live by faith, doing what is right for its own sake. This is why his primary opponents were the legalistic Judaizers who sought to convince Paul's converts that they needed to follow Jewish law beginning with getting circumcised.

This falls right in line with the teaching of Jesus that salvation is a work of God alone and we simply must have faith, showing our love for God by taking care of those in need. If anything it was Jesus who focused more on the need for doing good in the world, but when Jesus was asked directly what one must do in order to be saved, he replied this was impossible. Thus all the good he asked people to do was something they must do out of faith alone and not thinking it entitled you to a reward. Like Paul Jesus was fighting against a group of religious legalists, the Pharisees.
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:42 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,571,363 times
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twisted?

you mean my personal emotional need is not the only logical stance? that's weird.
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Old 08-02-2016, 01:35 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,700,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
That would be a most twisted reading of Paul contradicting nearly everything he says. What Paul says is that salvation is a gift and what we are asked to do is to live by faith, doing what is right for its own sake. This is why his primary opponents were the legalistic Judaizers who sought to convince Paul's converts that they needed to follow Jewish law beginning with getting circumcised.

This falls right in line with the teaching of Jesus that salvation is a work of God alone and we simply must have faith, showing our love for God by taking care of those in need. If anything it was Jesus who focused more on the need for doing good in the world, but when Jesus was asked directly what one must do in order to be saved, he replied this was impossible. Thus all the good he asked people to do was something they must do out of faith alone and not thinking it entitled you to a reward. Like Paul Jesus was fighting against a group of religious legalists, the Pharisees.
Perhaps I am getting the wrong message. True, the whole mechanism was a gift, and Faith is what earns the ticket. But you have a specific thing to have faith in. No just God - The Jews have that, too. but Faith in Jesus as the risen messiah. If you have that and you don't forfeit it by sinning (Paul warns against that) then you have the entry ticket to salvation. There is no indication that, if you do that much, you may not get the ticket.

Btw. What Jesus ha to say on the matter is (or so I argue) irrelevant, since Paul originated the whole Gentile - friendly messianist Judaism and everything that Jesus says in the gospels was written later by Paulinist Christians.

I can't expect you to just take my word for that, but you may ahve already seen a few arguments to say why I think that is the case.
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Old 08-02-2016, 01:36 PM
 
63,788 posts, read 40,053,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
That would be a most twisted reading of Paul contradicting nearly everything he says. What Paul says is that salvation is a gift and what we are asked to do is to live by faith, doing what is right for its own sake. This is why his primary opponents were the legalistic Judaizers who sought to convince Paul's converts that they needed to follow Jewish law beginning with getting circumcised.

This falls right in line with the teaching of Jesus that salvation is a work of God alone and we simply must have faith, showing our love for God by taking care of those in need. If anything it was Jesus who focused more on the need for doing good in the world, but when Jesus was asked directly what one must do in order to be saved, he replied this was impossible. Thus all the good he asked people to do was something they must do out of faith alone and not thinking it entitled you to a reward. Like Paul Jesus was fighting against a group of religious legalists, the Pharisees.
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Old 08-02-2016, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 331,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Perhaps I am getting the wrong message. True, the whole mechanism was a gift, and Faith is what earns the ticket. But you have a specific thing to have faith in. No just God - The Jews have that, too.
Not according to Paul -- not even as specific as God.

Romans 2:
Quote:
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts
Or perhaps Paul would simply say that a faith in things like goodness, justice and love is a faith in God, to all intents and purposes -- I would. I don't think the word "God" or some belief in the nonphysical is really all that critically important. If such things help then great, but if not, then who cares as long as you are standing up for thing which are really important to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
but Faith in Jesus as the risen messiah. If you have that and you don't forfeit it by sinning (Paul warns against that) then you have the entry ticket to salvation. There is no indication that, if you do that much, you may not get the ticket.
Good description of the magical legalist xtian group, but not such a good description of Paul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Btw. What Jesus ha to say on the matter is (or so I argue) irrelevant, since Paul originated the whole Gentile - friendly messianist Judaism and everything that Jesus says in the gospels was written later by Paulinist Christians.
What Jesus says would have been important to Paul. And even if they were written Pauline xtians later then it would be expressing the beliefs of the Pauline group anyway. So, of course, it is relevant -- either way.

Last edited by mitchellmckain; 08-02-2016 at 04:42 PM..
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:18 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,700,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
Not according to Paul -- not even as specific as God.

Romans 2:

"13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts."

Or perhaps Paul would simply say that a faith in things like goodness, justice and love is a faith in God, to all intents and purposes -- I would. I don't think the word "God" or some belief in the nonphysical is really all that critically important. If such things help then great, but if not, then who cares as long as you are standing up for thing which are really important to God.
I don't see the relevance to Paul's Messianic teaching on the way you get saved. He is talking about the reason that the Jewish law doesn't save, but...he is actually a bit confused in is argument...because being Righteous saves, and Abraham was righteous through his faith in God before the Law was given. The Law (to Paul) is an imposition that has to be observed faithfully or it will prevent the Jew being saved. In fact later he changed his view and says that the Jew can be saved through faith in Jesus even if he doesn't observe the law very well. He is talking about his own slipshod observance here.

The message of Romans is that - I looked for it and it comes down to this: If you believe in Jesus as the resurrected Messiah, that, if you don't lose it all by sinning, is is all you need to be saved. I am willing to discuss this further, with examples and your counter-argument, but I'm sure this is the basis of salvation.

Quote:
Good description of the magical legalist xtian group, but not such a good description of Paul.
I maintain that it describes Paul's method for being saved perfectly. If it is, as you say, a free gift, there is no indication that a gentile believing in Jesus would NOT be saved. assuming he was a sufficiently serious sinner.

Quote:
What Jesus says would have been important to Paul. And even if they were written Pauline xtians later then it would be expressing the beliefs of the Pauline group anyway. So, of course, it is relevant -- either way.
In fact what Jesus said while alive is surprisingly unimportant to Paul. He quotes only what was said on the night he was 'Given over' (translated as "Betrayed") and I suspect that this may not be his actual words.

Paul is pretty clear that he got next to nothing from the apostles who had walked and talked with Jesus. He claim to have got everything in his "Gospel" from the risen Jesus. I believe that the account of a chat with Jesus n the 3rh heaven is such a meeting.

And in fact, whatever he had in his head, Romans (his Thesis) argues out his case (not very logically, and with scant respect for what his OT textual quotes actually meant in context) by argument, not recital of what Jesus said.
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Old 08-03-2016, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,915,177 times
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I think if you use the term "commitment to rhe Way Jesus embodied" it would come together for you. You can say that's not what Paul SAID and we have Paul guilty of poorly expressing himself.
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Old 08-03-2016, 01:38 PM
 
63,788 posts, read 40,053,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
Not according to Paul -- not even as specific as God.
Romans 2:
Or perhaps Paul would simply say that a faith in things like goodness, justice and love is a faith in God, to all intents and purposes -- I would. I don't think the word "God" or some belief in the nonphysical is really all that critically important. If such things help then great, but if not, then who cares as long as you are standing up for thing which are really important to God.
Good description of the magical legalist xtian group, but not such a good description of Paul.
What Jesus says would have been important to Paul. And even if they were written Pauline xtians later then it would be expressing the beliefs of the Pauline group anyway. So, of course, it is relevant -- either way.
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Old 08-03-2016, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 331,667 times
Reputation: 88
Well... Transponder does have a point.

Paul doesn't really read like a modern Christian Preacher quoting Jesus all the time. But then what we have from Paul are letters of correction to the churches he established. But even then, it is a cause for some thought as to why we don't see Paul quoting Jesus very much.

It may be just a matter of character, one with which I can sympathize a great deal. Some people simply like to absorb the ideas and them express them in their own words. I would also suggest it may represent the difference between a teacher and a preacher. A teacher is more focused on penetrating the comprehension barrier and thus keeps thinking how to express the ideas in a way his students can understand better. A preacher is more focused on motivating people to change and action, and thus I think they quote more in order to borrow the inspirational power of other speakers. But again this difference is also a matter of style too.

Last edited by mitchellmckain; 08-03-2016 at 03:03 PM..
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