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Old 08-03-2016, 03:33 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I think if you use the term "commitment to rhe Way Jesus embodied" it would come together for you. You can say that's not what Paul SAID and we have Paul guilty of poorly expressing himself.
It would, but only because it is so vague as to be meaningless. What was the Way Jesus embodied? The way the gospels say or thee way Paul sauys? They are by no means the same.
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Old 08-03-2016, 03:44 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
Well... Transponder does have a point.

Paul doesn't really read like a modern Christian Preacher quoting Jesus all the time. But then what we have from Paul are letters of correction to the churches he established. But even then, it is a cause for some thought as to why we don't see Paul quoting Jesus very much.

It may be just a matter of character, one with which I can sympathize a great deal. Some people simply like to absorb the ideas and them express them in their own words. I would also suggest it may represent the difference between a teacher and a preacher. A teacher is more focused on penetrating the comprehension barrier and thus keeps thinking how to express the ideas in a way his students can understand better. A preacher is more focused on motivating people to change and action, and thus I think they quote more in order to borrow the inspirational power of other speakers. But again this difference is also a matter of style too.
"I said he was smart...ain't he smart boys?"

"Smart, Boss".

You Listen and I like that. I think we could agree on the way Paul was dealing with his churches. We don't know what he told his churches, but, if it was much different to Romans I would be surprised. And Paul differs in many important respects from the modern Christianity and from the gospels. I think it would be very interesting to go through Paul. At first he interested me less than the gospel account, but now I reckon he is the key to understanding how the gospels came to be written.

Teaching or preaching? It is a nice point, and I'd say paul does both. he teaches the gospel and then preaches to ram it home. And indeed he changes emphasis on what he teaches. In Romans he appears to assume that Faith in Jesus will make the believer sinless. He soon finds out this inst the case and admonishes his Corinthians to mend their ways, and it seems clear that they risk losing salvation if they don't. That in itself seems to argue that they all had it like it was a commercial agreement: Faith in Jesus buys you a ticket.

To get back to original Sin...that was the topic wasn't it? Paul blames it Adam's disobedience. Skipping over innate righteousness through instinctive belief in God (Abraham) before the Law was imposed as Paul would see it, and Sin. death was removed by Jesus' obedience all the way to the cross. The saving was there. One only needed to believe in Jesus - not in God - that is taken for granted - but in Jesus. That accesses the gift, and there is no question of it being with-held for no good reason than God can do so if he wants.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-03-2016 at 03:52 PM..
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Old 08-03-2016, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
It would, but only because it is so vague as to be meaningless. What was the Way Jesus embodied? The way the gospels say or thee way Paul sauys? They are by no means the same.
I don't see it as different and it can be expressed fairly simply: concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation... Paul said it a little differently: all things are lawful, not all things are beneficial.
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Old 08-03-2016, 07:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I don't see it as different and it can be expressed fairly simply: concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation... Paul said it a little differently: all things are lawful, not all things are beneficial.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:01 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I don't see it as different and it can be expressed fairly simply: concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation... Paul said it a little differently: all things are lawful, not all things are beneficial.
You have to conder Pau's context. He was rremonstrating with his Churches who had got the idea that, since the Mosaic Law didn't apply to them and they were saved by Faith, they could do what they liked. That was when Paul ad t ass a brake to his box -cart. If you sin, you risk losing salvation.

Apart from that, you are still taking a sort of general Jesusfaith and using it as a blanket cover for what Paul argued and what we find in the gospels - which moves on rather from Paul, rather than pau basing his arguments on the gospels.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:34 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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What Paul had to put a brake on was practices that were and are demonstrably harmful socially and personally.. Some of the Corinthians took freedom for license to do whatever they want regardless of consequences. Concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation INCLUDES consequences of actions. What moved on from Paul's remonstrance was a fall back to the idea of law rather than consideration of consequences. For the general church that was a giant step backwards, but it was not Paul's fault. It's what you get for dealing with people who don't understand what that spirit is all about, I get it all the time here.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:43 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,691,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
What Paul had to put a brake on was practices that were and are demonstrably harmful socially and personally.. Some of the Corinthians took freedom for license to do whatever they want regardless of consequences. Concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation INCLUDES consequences of actions. What moved on from Paul's remonstrance was a fall back to the idea of law rather than consideration of consequences. For the general church that was a giant step backwards, but it was not Paul's fault. It's what you get for dealing with people who don't understand what that spirit is all about, I get it all the time here.
Sorry. I have to disagree. True, Paul had a problem later on with Jews turning up and telling Paul's converts that they had to observe the whole law including circumcision and Clean food, if they wanted to be 'God's people'. But that wasn't what Paul was addressing in "Corinthians". The Mosaic law wasn't an issue. If the Corinthians or any of his other Gentile Churches had ever heard of the Mosaic law, they didn't know or care much about it. No, it seemed (and we have to surmise what they were doing from what Paul says about it) that after being sold salvation through faith, they got the idea that they could do whatever they liked. That is when Paul had to add the 'brake' of the possibility of losing salvation through sinning too much.

It is still a concept in modern Christianity.
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Old 08-04-2016, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Sorry. I have to disagree. True, Paul had a problem later on with Jews turning up and telling Paul's converts that they had to observe the whole law including circumcision and Clean food, if they wanted to be 'God's people'. But that wasn't what Paul was addressing in "Corinthians". The Mosaic law wasn't an issue. If the Corinthians or any of his other Gentile Churches had ever heard of the Mosaic law, they didn't know or care much about it. No, it seemed (and we have to surmise what they were doing from what Paul says about it) that after being sold salvation through faith, they got the idea that they could do whatever they liked. That is when Paul had to add the 'brake' of the possibility of losing salvation through sinning too much.

It is still a concept in modern Christianity.
I said nothing whatsoever about Mosaic Law, and your reply here is precisely what I said the problem was and the problem is that it is WRONG. Nothing is "sin" because it is against a law, ANY law. ANYthing is sin because it causes harm and the idea that there is ANY list of laws that is perfect or fits all circumstances is the greatest problem in Christianity today. If we could START with the idea that our concern is the well-being of everyone in any situation, then problems with current laws could be resolved. Honestly, don't you think that under those circumstances people with agendas would be exposed?
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Old 08-04-2016, 05:18 PM
 
19,013 posts, read 27,562,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guen View Post
By prophet Muhammad's own words: If one would know that only one person will go to paradise, he should hope that he might be the one; and if one knows that only one person will go to hell, he should be afraid that he might be the one.

A muslim should be in between fear and hope.

Only Allah knows for sure who will go where...
That's pretty sad, actually. A lifetime of uncertainty. Maybe that's why it's so easy to tip them into an action they believe WILL buy ticket to paradise?
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Old 08-04-2016, 05:25 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
3,287 posts, read 2,302,136 times
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Original sin is simple. "Even if you live the most exemplary life possible you're still going to Hell if you don't buy our product. Yes, Eternal Salvation™ can be yours! But only if you BELIEVE! And by "believe" I mean give my church money!"

And there we have an intangible, unprovable, and unlikely product, one with zero production costs and absolute no need to deliver. And the really great thing is the advertising is done by the suckers, I mean customers, themselves.
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