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May I treat all creatures great and small with gentleness, respect and dignity. May I never impose my will upon anyone else for my own selfish gains. May I never turn into what I hate.
I really want to approach this topic as fairly as possible, keeping in mind that Christianity really does not have much respect for vagina possessing human beings. But, seriously? Skim some of these sites and have a read or two. I've not seen much challenging this damaging nonsense on the web, and honestly, I am trying to bite my tongue (fingers?) as I type this to remain civil. It seems incomprehensible that anyone would advise someone else to remain in a wretched set of circumstances (because GOD), but peep the general theme:
If the man is a violent alcoholic...the woman is to stay and be a good submissive doormat.
If the woman does not want sex with the man, she is to do it anyway, because GOD.
Eff your identity Beeotch. Because GOD.
Where is the personal accountability both ways? Where is the respect for the woman? Do these men respect themselves if they need to stomp on their woman (wife) whom they are supposed to love? Where is the accounting for her feelings and her validity as a human being? Most of all, why do these women put up with this? I can't even wrap my head around this. I totally, TOTALLY get that this is THEIR right to believe as they do. I have no beef with that. The only beef I have, is people advocating the mistreatment of other sentient beings. I don't care if it's the Unicorn Wilderness Cult perpetuating it, or whatever. Why is this allowed in 2013 in 'civilized' society? No one has to answer all of my rhetorical queries, I just...can't.
I would say the same thing if men were being denigrated by women in these "advice" columns. People should not use any dogma to mistreat other people. Period. But again, here it is.
To be fair to Christians, many other fundamentalist religions are also incredibly sexist. It's almost as if the men that invented these religions and wrote these holy books wanted to solidify and maintain the current power structure.
These were some of the views of Christian church fathers about women. Women were seen as very much inferior to men. Is this the basis of the misogyny and sexism of many religious conservatives today?
Tertullian: (c 160 – 225 AD) "The curse God pronounced on your sex still weighs on the world."
"You are the devil's gateway"
"You are the first that deserted the divine laws. All too easily you destroyed the image of God, Adam".
"You led astray one whom the devil would not dare attack directly. It was your fault that the Son of God had to die; you should always go in mourning and rags."
Origen: (c 184 - c 253 AD) "For [as Paul declares] "I do not permit a woman to teach," and even less "to tell a man what to do."
Clement of Alexandria: (c 150 - 215 AD) "the consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame".
Augustine: (354–430 AD) "Why was woman created at all?" "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."
"I don't see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?" (he sounds like a closet case to me)
Ambrose: (c 337- c 397 AD) "Adam was deceived by Eve, not Eve by Adam... it is right that he whom that woman induced to sin should assume the role of guide lest he fall again through feminine instability."
St Jerome: (c 347- 420 AD) "woman is the root of all evil."
"It is contrary to the order of nature and of the law for women to speak in a gathering"
John Chrysostom: (347 - 407 AD)
"..the male sex enjoyed the higher honor. Man was first formed"
"He wishes the man to have the preeminence in every way." "for the sex is weak and fickle".
"It does not profit a man to marry. For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food ..."
Boethius: (c 480 - 524 AD)
"Woman is a temple built over a sewer."
Pope Gregory: ( 540 - 604 AD) "Woman is slow in understanding and her unstable and naive mind renders her by way of natural weakness to the necessity of a strong hand in her husband. Her 'use' is two fold; sex and motherhood."
Albertus Magnus: (c 1200 - 1280 AD) "Woman is less qualified [than man] for moral behavior. For the woman contains more liquid than man, and it is a property of liquid to take things up easily and to hold unto them poorly."
"Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his"
Thomas Aquinas: (1225 - 1274 AD) "Woman was made only to assist with procreation."
"So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in men the discretion of reason predominates."
And of course Paul: "Now I permit a woman neither to teach nor exercise authority over a man, but let her be in quietness. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived [when he sinned]; but the woman, having [first] been thoroughly deceived, became [involved] in the transgression [of Adam].
It continued with the Protestant churches:
Martin Luther: (1483- 1586 AD) "Women should remain at home, sit still, keep house and bear and bring up children" "If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it." "the wife should stay at home and look after the affairs of the household as one who has been deprived of the ability of administering those affairs that are outside and concern the state…." "There is no gown or garment that worse becomes a woman than when she would be wise."
John Calvin: (1509 - 1564 AD) "All women are born that they may acknowledge themselves as inferior to the male." "the woman's place is in the home."
This is tangentially related, but I came across the book To Train Up a Child - there's a petition to get it removed from Amazon. It's Christian based. Just reading through the sample on amazon - ugh. It's like they're talking about training a rabid dog. Or a satire, except it's real. A lot of the reviews are sarcastic, but a lot of people actually praise the book.
Another thing about Christians I don't get is the whole "Blame Eve" deal. I have seen and heard many Christians claim online and IRL that Gawd caused human females to "suffer" in childbirth because of the horrible, horrible act she supposedly committed in the mythical garden by succumbing to the temptation from "the Devil" and seeking knowledge (a whole 'nother can of worms...punished for wanting to be enlightened? Hmm...), but anyway, don't ALL mammals experience some degree of pain when giving birth? Growing up, I watched many animals on our farm give birth from mares to cats, and none of them looked like they were having a swell time during labor and delivery. Cows will thrash against hay stacks and low loudly. Cats and dogs pant and howl in pain. Mares are especially sensitive, you can look into their eyes and see their suffering. Well holy crap, did Gawd get mad at these female animals, too? Just because they cannot speak (our language), does not mean they do not feel pain while giving birth. It's the same basic process that takes place with human females. Hormones trigger contractions in the uterus to expel the fetus from the birth canal. Contractions cause pain. In fact, men, contractions feel awfully similar to an epic case of the poop bubblies when your belly is tied in knots. No magical, archaic "legacy of punishment" is involved. I can't believe people even take this BS seriously. Smdh...
These were some of the views of Christian church fathers about women. Women were seen as very much inferior to men. Is this the basis of the misogyny and sexism of many religious conservatives today?
Tertullian: (c 160 – 225 AD) "The curse God pronounced on your sex still weighs on the world."
"You are the devil's gateway"
"You are the first that deserted the divine laws. All too easily you destroyed the image of God, Adam".
"You led astray one whom the devil would not dare attack directly. It was your fault that the Son of God had to die; you should always go in mourning and rags."
Origen: (c 184 - c 253 AD) "For [as Paul declares] "I do not permit a woman to teach," and even less "to tell a man what to do."
Clement of Alexandria: (c 150 - 215 AD) "the consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame".
Augustine: (354–430 AD) "Why was woman created at all?" "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."
"I don't see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?" (he sounds like a closet case to me)
Ambrose: (c 337- c 397 AD) "Adam was deceived by Eve, not Eve by Adam... it is right that he whom that woman induced to sin should assume the role of guide lest he fall again through feminine instability."
St Jerome: (c 347- 420 AD) "woman is the root of all evil."
"It is contrary to the order of nature and of the law for women to speak in a gathering"
John Chrysostom: (347 - 407 AD)
"..the male sex enjoyed the higher honor. Man was first formed"
"He wishes the man to have the preeminence in every way." "for the sex is weak and fickle".
"It does not profit a man to marry. For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food ..."
Boethius: (c 480 - 524 AD)
"Woman is a temple built over a sewer."
Pope Gregory: ( 540 - 604 AD) "Woman is slow in understanding and her unstable and naive mind renders her by way of natural weakness to the necessity of a strong hand in her husband. Her 'use' is two fold; sex and motherhood."
Albertus Magnus: (c 1200 - 1280 AD) "Woman is less qualified [than man] for moral behavior. For the woman contains more liquid than man, and it is a property of liquid to take things up easily and to hold unto them poorly."
"Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his"
Thomas Aquinas: (1225 - 1274 AD) "Woman was made only to assist with procreation."
"So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in men the discretion of reason predominates."
And of course Paul: "Now I permit a woman neither to teach nor exercise authority over a man, but let her be in quietness. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived [when he sinned]; but the woman, having [first] been thoroughly deceived, became [involved] in the transgression [of Adam].
It continued with the Protestant churches:
Martin Luther: (1483- 1586 AD) "Women should remain at home, sit still, keep house and bear and bring up children" "If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it." "the wife should stay at home and look after the affairs of the household as one who has been deprived of the ability of administering those affairs that are outside and concern the state…." "There is no gown or garment that worse becomes a woman than when she would be wise."
John Calvin: (1509 - 1564 AD) "All women are born that they may acknowledge themselves as inferior to the male." "the woman's place is in the home."
This is enlightening. Most cultures and religions hated women throughout history and sought to subdue them. I truly wonder why?
UK universities are allowing guest speakers to demand gender segregation in the lecture hall, as long as the segregation is left to right and not front to back (this was the compromise). It is primarily Muslim speakers who demand this condition.
It's not only in the home that women are advised and required to be the lesser of the two sexes; equality is something that is still being fought for in the public realm, even countries like England. The religious vilification and debasement of women is accepted because it's been the status quo for so long.
Women, by and large, treat men very badly. Very, very badly. I see it every day and most likely so do the people that are reading this.
Men and women treat each other very, very badly. The way I'd put it is that women do not deserve the image they like to embrace of being the gender that has the monopoly on loyalty, devotion, and nurturing kindness -- at least toward husbands. In my experience they are every bit as feckless and cruel in their way as men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson
For whatever reason (ostensibly due to feminism), women have become very cold and very hard and very uncaring towards their husbands.
And to balance what I just said above, maybe in part it is because of the historical power imbalance with men. As (IIRC) Stephen King's Delores Clairborne character said, with respect to luring her abusive husband to fall into a well to his death, "Sometimes all a woman's got is being a b__ch". Generations of women have used the only power they have had -- the power to disrupt domestic tranquility, deny sex, and assault men's egos where they are the most vulnerable -- to have whatever self-determinations they have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson
I think that the gist of most of these sites simply hope to help women understand this and return to a type of relationship that will make everyone happy.
That may be the incredibly naive, tone-deaf, ham-fisted, clueless intention, but that doesn't make it less harmful.
I shall abandon ship now. Evidently, my genuine attempt at discourse and exchange of ideas has irritated the powers that be. MY BAD.
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