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I've read Job many times. There is something wrong with your heart if you didn't get the message out of the lesson it was teaching. Unshakable faith. So even after God restored everything to Job such as health, wealth, etc., you still complain and accuse God of doing something wrong? You're not worthy of him or anything in his kingdom. I'm glad people like you won't be there.
Wow - I go to work for a day or two and four pages appear! I've made it though the first page so far...
You're very welcome.
It is an understandable statement (pun intended) concerning the nature of God. Job attempts to understand a certain aspect of God's nature - as put by Abrahamm when Yahweh is hellbent on destroying Sodom and Gomorrah:
Heaven forbid for you to do a thing like this,
to deal death to the innocent along with the guilty,
that it should come about: like the innocent, like the guilty,
Heaven forbid for you!
The judge of all the earth - will he not do what is right?
(Genesis 18:25, SB Fox)
Yahweh is the "judge of all the earth", and as the "judge" he is expected to meet certain qualities in a judge. In fact, one could argue that he is expected to have superhuman qualities far surpassing any human judge. But this is an expectation that Job has destroyed in his attempts to reach a just settlement with God, when he finally admits that any attempt to argue his case in a divine court would be doomed from the outset since God would be both defendant and judge! He eventually concludes, in one of the most haunting of passages in the Hebrew Bible:
Though I be righteous, my mouth would condemn me;
Though guiltless, he would declare me perverse.
I am innocent;
I care not for myself;
I loathe my life.
'Tis all the same. Therefore I say,
'Guiltless as well as wicked he destroys.'
When the scourge slays suddenly,
He mocks the despair of the innocent.
Earth is given to the control of the wicked.
The faces of her judges he covers.
If not he, then who?
(Job 9:20-24, AB Pope)
Job has tried in vain to reach an understanding of why he is being punished - in vain. When he finally does meet God from the whirlwind, he only receives a harsh verbal beating that basically tells Job that when he is able to do the same mighty things God does, then he can take over and do them. Until that time - he's stuck with a capricious God that "mocks the despair of the innocent." How is one to understand and cope with such a God? Perhaps with that "fear and trembling" that Kierkegaard wrote about so elegantly.
Not sure if this has been given an attempt at an answer yet, but here goes.
Job's wife - did she do anything wrong? Both Job and his wife had been operating under the very common idea that if one is in a right relationship with God then there will be certain benefits. This can be seen from the "Vassal Treaty" form of Deuteronomy in which the people of Israel (the vassal) swear a fealty oath to Yahweh with certain expectations from the suzerain (in this case, God). It is very similar in form to Hittite and Assyrian treaties of the time, except that a deity takes the place of a human political ruler. In both cases, the suzerain promises certain things to the vassals if they obey and keep their part of the bargain. Great curses fall down on the heads of those who break the treaty. Conversely, the suzerain is expected to keep his side of the bargain. This operates with how the ancients viewed their relationship with God.
When Job - who was "blameless and upright and shunned all evil" - was punished with curses, yet has admittedly done no wrong - it is only natural to assume that some gross miscarriage of justice has occurred, or that the other treaty member has broken his part of the bargain. So there are no longer any expectations of vassal loyalty, or faith in this case. Job has every right to choose a new god to worship, but he does not do so. His faith has been SO crushed, that he merely wants an answer as to why it is happening, and he wants to die. His wife is acting very sensibly when she utters "Curse God and die!"
Now - there's two possible meanings in this sentence:
1) Curse God (blaspheme, or enact the treaty stipulations) and then expire, just basically give up the ghost.
2) Curse God (see above) and be immediately killed by God!
The first explanation seems likely, but so does the second one. Which one to choose? Who knows....
Anyways, from the point of view given above, I would not be too harsh on the wife. After all, in the Patriarchal times that are being clearly depicted in the story, because of the subservient position of women to men, the success of the male impacted the female. All her children had been killed! That would drive any mother to say such a thing. But even losing her status in the "treaty" situation would justify her words. We can judge her, but a later tradition has Job gently whipping her with strands of hair. Perhaps she was the catalyst for Job's poetic outrage, and we should be thankful?
Yes - Retributive Justice definitely smacks of that proposition. The Satan brings this very issue up in the beginning of the book. He states that Job does not worship God for nothing - he is being bribed. Of COURSE he worships Yahweh - look at all the rewards he is getting: many children, much property and slaves, a good name, a long life, and vigor. These are all indicators of a right relationship with God. The Satan brings the entire idea of RJ into question with this simple question, which goads God to act. Perhaps God does not know? The entire idea comes crashing down through the course of the poetic section. The most bizarre part is that the framework story that ends the book actually reinstates RJ by giving Job back all his stuff! This is just one of many reasons why scholars suspect the book is from composite sources.
Perhaps we should take the contradictory and confusing advice of a certain proverb?
Do not answer a fool in his own foolish terms,
Lest you put yourself on his level.
Answer a fool in his own foolish terms
So he will not think himself wise.
(Proverbs 26:4-5, AB Scott)
Say, whaaaat? Which one do I do?!
Do not answer a fool according to his folly in such a way that you would become a foolish as he, but answer him according to his folly in such a way that he will realize his own foolishness...
I've read Job many times. There is something wrong with your heart if you didn't get the message out of the lesson it was teaching. Unshakable faith. So even after God restored everything to Job such as health, wealth, etc., you still complain and accuse God of doing something wrong? Your not worthy of him or anything in his kingdom. I'm glad people like you won't be there.
Unshaking shallowness; family is irreplaceable. Job was as righteous as much as he didn't care who his wife and children were. There is something seriously wrong in your heart if you didn't notice the evil the myth implies yet hides it and wraps it under shinny things. Let the bad keep their religions, they don't belong in a world of goodness. Faith is no virtue, faith is most often a vice, because it denies the evidence, and is really a stand in for blind, hopeful loyalty... Where is the virtue in that? We dropped that sort of thing for democracy, equality, and freedom long ago.
Have you read Carl Marx? Would there be something wrong with you if you saw evil and fault in it and failed to see the goodness of the message as Communists describe it? We really have to be wiser and more critical.
Another aspect of Job that leads me to believe it is either a book of complete fiction or that somehow humans have changed in their views of death drastically is with regard to the deaths of Jobs children.
I am related to two different women (who have no blood relationship to each other) who have lost young children in death. Both went on to have more children (3 in each case), which would appear to be a perfect way to happiness and fulfillment according to the book of Job... if you lose something, just get another one to replace it, or in the case of Job, if you lose 10 children due to your integrity, God will replace the ones you lose and they will be better than the first batch by dint of the fact that the females are better looking than the first batch.
Except for the fact that the two women I know have suffered terribly and experienced great mental anguish ever since their child died, which has impacted the whole of the rest of their lives, relationships and the ability to carry on a 'normal' existence. For one of the women, she lost her child and then had twins, but she has become an alcoholic and is unable to care for her other children properly, such has been the effect on her.
Maybe back then they were made of tougher stuff, but to lose 10 unique and beloved children and to find out it was the result of a bet made by God with Satan, would undeniably lead me to reject such a cruel and twisted being, and giving me 10 'better' looking kids would just add insult to the injury!
I've read Job many times. There is something wrong with your heart if you didn't get the message out of the lesson it was teaching. Unshakable faith. So even after God restored everything to Job such as health, wealth, etc., you still complain and accuse God of doing something wrong? You're not worthy of him or anything in his kingdom. I'm glad people like you won't be there.
Do not answer a fool according to his folly in such a way that you would become a foolish as he, but answer him according to his folly in such a way that he will realize his own foolishness...
Are you willing to risk it then, and take the proverb's gamble? Or will you "wisemen" hit us with one-linners and quotes from others and refuse to answer us "fools" on our terms at all, allowing us the privilege of believing ourselves about our believes?
Another aspect of Job that leads me to believe it is either a book of complete fiction or that somehow humans have changed in their views of death drastically is with regard to the deaths of Jobs children.
I am related to two different women (who have no blood relationship to each other) who have lost young children in death. Both went on to have more children (3 in each case), which would appear to be a perfect way to happiness and fulfillment according to the book of Job... if you lose something, just get another one to replace it, or in the case of Job, if you lose 10 children due to your integrity, God will replace the ones you lose and they will be better than the first batch by dint of the fact that the females are better looking than the first batch.
Except for the fact that the two women I know have suffered terribly and experienced great mental anguish ever since their child died, which has impacted the whole of the rest of their lives, relationships and the ability to carry on a 'normal' existence. For one of the women, she lost her child and then had twins, but she has become an alcoholic and is unable to care for her other children properly, such has been the effect on her.
Maybe back then they were made of tougher stuff, but to lose 10 unique and beloved children and to find out it was the result of a bet made by God with Satan, would undeniably lead me to reject such a cruel and twisted being, and giving me 10 'better' looking kids would just add insult to the injury!
Are you willing to risk it then, and take the proverb's gamble? Or will you "wisemen" hit us with one-linners and quotes from others and refuse to answer us "fools" on our terms at all, allowing us the privilege of believing ourselves about our believes?
It depends on whether you are seeking Truth or your own truth...
Great book, it shows the faith and loyalty by Job even in the midst of suffering,. It shows the pernicious ways of satan by putting God to the test by making Job go through the struggles to show that his faith could be shaken and shown that they weren't.
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Which one do I do?!
