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Yet, you and the others on this thread pretend to be able to judge God.
No they aren't judging God, Vizio. They are judging your savage and barbaric beliefs ABOUT God from our ignorant ancestors' writings under the veil of ignorance Christ came to lift. You refuse to accept Christ's revelations and retain the ancient ignorance of our ancestors as if it was from God. I acknowledge God as the source of morality . . . but I also accept Christ's version of God and follow His Holy Spirit (Comforter) . . . what you should call your conscience . . . to what is moral and what is not. Your conscience has been seared by the "doctrine of demons" and you substitute the ignorance of our savage ancestors for the guidance of God's Holy Spirit within. You may feel you are defending God but you are defending a satanic corruption of Christ's revelation appealing to the worst in human nature . . . not the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Standing in judgment of what some ancient primitive savages wrote in a book they SAID was inspired by God . . . is NOT standing in judgment of God. It is standing in judgment of those ignorant ancient savages and their barbaric beliefs ABOUT God. You pretend that is NOT the issue . . . but it is and everyone knows it, Vizio. You believe those ignorant ancient savages over ALL that we have learned in the 2000+ years since. That makes your views the epitome of luddite! You think that gives you the right to speak for God . . . but it doesn't. God can speak for himself and we are capable of hearing Him within our consciousness. It is our conscience and THAT is the source of our morality direct from God. It is superior to your ancient book of savagery and barbarity. Too bad your conscience is seared by the "doctrine of demons" you believe in.
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The thread hasn't done much to improve my view of honesty in religious people.
And that's a pity because there are people of faith who believe in honest, straight forward discussions. This thread has been an example of the disingenuousness of some religious people. Sadly, it's SOP for many who have distinct fundamentalist beliefs.
Mathematical law are absolute. You can not make 3x2=7. see, ABSOLUTE.
Moral "laws" are not absolute. You can assert that killing ants is against moral law, yet I can step on an ant.
Maybe you need to look up the word ABSOLUTE.
Of course moral laws are absolute.
Killing ants for no good reason ( reasons to do with territorial rights) is against moral law.
Man needs the earth and its attributes in order to survive, pollution, un-neccesary killing
confronts and objects to the setting which as allowed man to become.
in order to argue, justifying pollution is necessary. Very simple stuff.
No they aren't judging God, Vizio. They are judging your savage and barbaric beliefs ABOUT God from our ignorant ancestors' writings under the veil of ignorance Christ came to lift. You refuse to accept Christ's revelations and retain the ancient ignorance of our ancestors as if it was from God. I acknowledge God as the source of morality . . . but I also accept Christ's version of God and follow His Holy Spirit (Comforter) . . . what you should call your conscience . . . to what is moral and what is not. Your conscience has been seared by the "doctrine of demons" and you substitute the ignorance of our savage ancestors for the guidance of God's Holy Spirit within. You may feel you are defending God but you are defending a satanic corruption of Christ's revelation appealing to the worst in human nature . . . not the best.
Allow me to explain something to you and others.
We are discussing the "circumstance of life and the issue of right vrs wrong behav.
Regardless of a belief one way or another, any and all commentary is in fact making an observation, an opinion on an idea . ( the circumstance.
The circumstance or idea, is NOT your idea,
it is not anyone else's idea.
Believers believe it is Gods idea or whatever appropriate word. Atheists and agnostic's agree its an idea by virtue of commenting.
The unfolding nature of everything is how it is, in the unanimously agreed idea.
Its not anyone's privilege to interfere with the nature of an unfolding value in humanity,
no different then dragging older scientists through the street and saying look here what I caught, they are blah blah blah, when the fact of the matter is they were much smarter then you or anyone here, just look at writings.
What about survival and history, wheres the confidence if things hit the fan here, what will it be ? Nicey how do you do's, gimme a break with this barbaric etc etc brainwashing . I guess whats written in the heart would get rubbed out somehow
...yet that lineup in distant lands for one lousy loaf of bread that got bombed last year, what were they doing, in line, in order, children well behaved prob more in keeping with older times.
How can anyone translate the history of man as a barbaric etc etc set of circumstance's and history , when this world is the one that has and threats to not only wreck the planet and all life, but murder millions and millions of people in the snap of a finger . Preferred status ? much is parable orientated.
And also consequence is a reality, lets get that clear, consequence is a reality. Man is in fact what he is and that's all that usually gets said. Trying to blow something way off the map and manipulate, ridicule in order to deny the simple issue of consequence is a waste of time.
Objectively speaking, what happens to a worker that goes up to the boss and says hey those workers over there are blah blah blah to a great degree , in disagreeing..
the person gets fired. Understanding the issues and psychology re virtue vrs vice and how inter-connectivity in these modes work is necessary in order to get at talking in this subject, why...because they have to do with flourish , consequence and the idea being talking about, which is not anyone heres idea.
Last edited by alexcanter; 12-03-2013 at 07:05 PM..
Christians get all their stuff from the Bible, directly or indirectly, including their moral compass. I go on the theory that the Bible was not written by the "hand of God", but in fact written by the hand of man. As evidence, there in the Bible are some pretty gruesome things either done by God himself, or approved by God. All of these atrocities look all the world to be the invention of imperfect moral beings. So best I can tell, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and atheists, all get their morality from the same place; each other.
SH was brought up by his mother who was Jewish and his father a quaker, he says he does not believe in God but Ive heard him slip. He's got huge hangups, no way people cannot see it. and its all a show for doe.
no body hear practices personality worship. It doesn't matter who Dr. Sam Harris is or what "pro-theist" slip ups he makes. The arguments are taken at face value and only hurt those who think they have some merit and effect.
no body hear practices personality worship. It doesn't matter who Dr. Sam Harris is or what "pro-theist" slip ups he makes. The arguments are taken at face value and only hurt those who think they have some merit and effect.
He's a pro, and is responsible to his profession and its merit. Reason being tax dollars and trust are part of societies contribution.
prof are responsible for quality and many for this reason are regulated. many can loose their license.
are you saying an individual who use's qualifications is not answerable to anyone?
objectively, what does a philosopher need to do and promote in whatever way, to loose his or her license?
a pro in the public eye is subject to the highest scrutiny, backgrounds, influence, experience's are always important.
and besides understanding opinions ( evolving out of backgrounds) and giving opinions is inseparable from anything. He is a pro, and this is the civilization being spoken to. I have to get back to work, that was a good question.
Last edited by alexcanter; 12-03-2013 at 07:26 PM..
12-03-2013, 08:59 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Let's see:
The theist wants to know how we can say something is wrong.
Now we ask how do you say something is wrong?
The theist answers - God.
We then ask why does God say something is wrong?
The theist has two choices here: 1) I don't know and it does not matter - he is God - what God says goes. 2) He appeals to some reasons. Note this is the Euthyphro Dilemma.
If he appeals to authority as the basis for what is moral then he is unable to judge why something is moral/immoral - the reasons elude him or he thinks it unnecessary. And if this is the case then how is he able to tell if the authority is moral/immoral?
If he appeals to reasons why something is wrong then we can appeal to the reasons and forget God all together.
Now the theist might say but how do you know that your reasons are correct?
Good question, but first, we might as well ask the theist the same of him - how do you know that God's reasons are correct? Note that this comes down to an epistemology problem.
If the theist appeals to God for what is good but has no way of knowing good apart from God being the authority then what good is it to have God in the moral scenario if the theist is unable to discern if God is good. As such it is not about moral accountability and knowing why something is wrong or right - it's just blind obedeince to the power - Might makes Right.
So when a theist asks how do you say something is wrong or how can you judge someone else without a god authority they are really just playing conceptual language games. They basically invent a metaphysical entity, that they have yet to demonstrate even exists let alone has some objective moral values that he infused in humanity, in order to justify a sense of objectivity so that they can say something is wrong without having to say why it is wrong - they just appeal to an idealized invisible unsubstantiated metaphysical source. They then act as if they have accomplished some great feat in asking you to explain why something is wrong without this source.
It does not matter that non-theists give them plenty of answers regarding where morality comes from and how we can discern if something is moral/immoral. They think that if there is no metaphysical conceptual place holder for supra-objectivity then all actions are either meaningless and/or relative. It does not matter to them that our knowledge regarding certain facts about biology and logic have an affect and effect with regard to our actions. We know by way of biology, experience, and logic that certain actions are not relative nor meaningless and that they have negative/positive biological/psychological effects that are very meaningful and certainly not relative for the here and now.
Why do many people's moral values seem objective? It's simple - because they are based in our biology and experience. They are taught to us from a young age by parents and society. As such they are below the conscious/rational level and arise as intuitive sentiments in our consciousness. As such when one becomes a rational being they seek to justify these moral sentiments. The theist assumes that this sense of objectivity actually means that it exists in some source outside of biology/experience/society and in some metaphysical being. But they can do nothing to substantiate or demonstrate that such an objective moral value system exits nor the being in which it supposedly resides. They just appeal to a person's strong intuitions as some sort of argument for their unsubstantiated claims.
You then say that it can't be God. OK.....what then? Where does your system of morality come from and how is it possible for you to stand in judgment of God?
I'll answer your last question first.
If you're a Christian, then you also stand in judgment of God. How? Because you have judged him to be good. People forget that passing a judgment isn't always negative. There are positive judgments, too, like judging a person to be trustworthy or judging a person to be of good character. One cannot have an opinion of anything, including God, without judgments. So if I cannot judge God negatively, you cannot judge God positively for the same reasons.
But we're both going to pass our own judgments regarding God, so debating down this avenue is pretty much a dead-end.
My system of morality essentially comes from the Golden Rule. Note that just because it is found in the Bible doesn't mean it had to have come from God. Nope. It came from the author, and those are words I try to live by. I don't always succeed because I'm not perfect, but my morality comes from a genuine desire to treat others with respect and kindness ... because that is how I would want to be treated. Your morality comes from authority, kind of like when a mother tells two quarreling brothers to shake hands and make up. They shake hands while glaring at each other, still pissed to high heaven at each other. That's not the best way of being decent.
I've talked to a number of Christians who have actually said things like, "Without God, why not just rape and murder?" Well, gee, I dunnae ... because I'm not a rapist or murderer? The concept of "God" is not the flimsy wall that separates me from barbarity. I am not a caged psychopath kept in check only by a primitive fear of the supernatural. Perhaps Christians are all violent criminals throwing themselves at the bars of their religious cage, eager to start a killing spree if not for that God holding them back? What else am I supposed to think?
My morality comes from empathy, a knowledge that no matter what rules are in place, I would do my utmost never to treat another person like a pile of slime. Christian morality comes from authority, a God telling you want to do, what to think, how to act ... and NOT from your inherent sense of decency and goodness. Honestly, that frightens me a little since it really does seem as if Christians portray themselves as slavering beasts leashed only by God. If that's the case then, by all means, keep believing for the sake of us all!
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