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Originally Posted by thrillobyte Here's the pieces you are missing, jambo; if you have lived an honest, decent life and helped hundreds of people have better lives in the process, but you die with even a fraction of doubt that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for your sins, then you will go to the lake of fire and burn in the most awful torment for all eternity; but if you have raped and tortured hundreds of children, but then accepted Jesus as your Lord and savior two minutes before you die, then you go straight to heaven, all those heinous acts against children automatically forgiven, no penalties due, no questions asked.
While it is true that one who believes Christ died for their sins that such a one is now considered righteous, that does not mean there are no longer disciplinary actions by the Father for His children.
Read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 in which many believers were being adversatively judged by God so they would not be condemned with the world. Yes, they are still saved, but they still get a good spanking.
While it is true that one who believes Christ died for their sins that such a one is now considered righteous, that does not mean there are no longer disciplinary actions by the Father for His children.
Read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 in which many believers were being adversatively judged by God so they would not be condemned with the world. Yes, they are still saved, but they still get a good spanking.
So if Hitler became a Free Grace Christian before dying he gets a little slap on the wrist, a temporary punishment,
but if a good honest man who doesn't believe in Christ dies he get tortured Forever?
That's not just nor fair.
Which is why I reject Free Grace and Eternal Torture both because a loving, just, and fair god would not utilize either.
While it is true that one who believes Christ died for their sins that such a one is now considered righteous, that does not mean there are no longer disciplinary actions by the Father for His children.
Read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 in which many believers were being adversatively judged by God so they would not be condemned with the world. Yes, they are still saved, but they still get a good spanking.
I'm with Azrael, Eusebius. I no longer subscribe to most of what Christian man-made dogma preaches via their personal interpretations of the Bible. As I said in another post I accept the bare minimum for salvation just as a "fire" policy: Jesus crucified, died and resurrected for the forgiveness of sins. Beyond that it's all white noise to me. I go with all the hundreds of thousands of real diverse experiences of NDE's and spirit feedback given to men that all perfectly aligns with the accepted notions that men, upon death, go to the first of seven levels of the spirit world that is beautifully designed like this world in order to gradually ease them into spiritual life in the hereafter. If you are interested in learning more about it, my previous post has a link to an excellent book. If you are going to stick with the traditional dogma I wish you well.
So if Hitler became a Free Grace Christian before dying he gets a little slap on the wrist, a temporary punishment,
but if a good honest man who doesn't believe in Christ dies he get tortured Forever?
That's not just nor fair.
Which is why I reject Free Grace and Eternal Torture both because a loving, just, and fair god would not utilize either.
Dear Azrael, God is eventually going to save absolutely all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
I don't believe God is in the torturing business.
I don't believe in "eternal torment."
I do believe God can do with His that which He wants.
God is also going to judge (set right) all mankind including Christians.
Judging i,e., being set right is not always a bad thing.
What if God already judged Hitler?
You are saying certain things God does is not fair. Let's really think about that.
Dear Azrael, how do you know that men, upon death, go to the first of seven levels of the spirit world?
Are you going to stick with your traditional dogma concerning this?
I am confused at this question, what are you asking exactly?
My afterlife beliefs are that most people Reincarnate, Saints move onto Paradise, and those who are truly evil are sent into a realm known as the Void where they cease to exist. The spiritual world occupies the same space as the physical world but is invisible to our senses. Some spirits cling to attachments refusing to move on and in time if they won't let go and move on they become Unclean Spirits.
Dear Azrael, God is eventually going to save absolutely all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
I don't believe God is in the torturing business.
I don't believe in "eternal torment."
That's good that you don't believe in eternal torment, that I respect.
You referenced this in your post: "who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time." - 1 Timothy 2:4-6(NIV)
I don't believe there is only a single god, but I do believe there is only one god worthy of praise and worship.
I don't believe in sacrificial atonement, especially human sacrifice.
If a deity is as Loving and Merciful as it is said to be then it has the power to forgive with out needing blood.
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I do believe God can do with His that which He wants.
We are not his possessions, we have freewill.
A father has no right to rape his daughter or murder his wife, likewise a deity has no right to abuse it's followers nor other people.
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God is also going to judge (set right) all mankind including Christians.
What do you believe that sentence means? How is that going to happen?
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Judging i,e., being set right is not always a bad thing.
Disipline is some times needed, but a good parent knows when to relent when the punishment is enough.
Yahweh was shown to abuse his power in the Old Testament time and again when it was claimed to be within his power to do things with out bloodshed.
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What if God already judged Hitler?
I believe he was, his soul no longer exists.
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You are saying certain things God does is not fair. Let's really think about that.
You are mistaken,
Yahweh is not my god nor do I believe he is the Father of Christ.
I am judging Yahweh, not my god.
My goddess revealed herself to me, she is the true father of Christ for she has within herself both the creative forces of male and female, she merely manifests as a female.
Remember I am not a Monotheist Christian, I am a Monolatrist one. I view things differently, to me the god of the Old Testament is evil and hide it's true identity.
Thousands of after-death testimonies of spirits in contact with mediums here on earth in all areas of the globe (to show there is no conspiracy going on between these thousands of mediums) all consistently tell the same set of conditions as spoken to them by the spirits of former living people: that death itself is painless; that the dying person is met by a series of spirit guides, deceased friends, relatives, etc help guide the dying person to the first level of the spirit world; that once the spirit breaks free of its spiritual "umbilical" cord it is transported with these guides where it undergoes a life review that involves no judgement on the part of God--that each person judges themselves after being shown their good and bad deeds; afterwards they are escorted into a world very much like our own that exists right here on earth but in a different dimension; that it is composed of large cities that spread out into smaller and smaller "suburbs" consisting of beautiful landscapes, rivers, trees, mountains and environment indescribable in terms of beauty; that spirits gather with other spirits like themselves to form communities; that soul-mates join by God's power and then live together in mansions within these communities. And on and on it goes. Read the book for more description.
Traditional Christians ascribe all this to the work of demons. I don't believe in the devil or demons. They are all myths invented by the Church to scare people into believing in their dogma and to keep gullible uninformed Christians dependent on their brand of religion.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Dear Azrael, how do you know that men, upon death, go to the first of seven levels of the spirit world?
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Originally Posted by Azrael17
I am confused at this question, what are you asking exactly?
My afterlife beliefs are that most people Reincarnate, Saints move onto Paradise, and those who are truly evil are sent into a realm known as the Void where they cease to exist. The spiritual world occupies the same space as the physical world but is invisible to our senses. Some spirits cling to attachments refusing to move on and in time if they won't let go and move on they become Unclean Spirits.
It's a simple question.
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