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Sorry but as I mentioned each meeting is self-supporting and run autonomously.
And as I mentioned, that does not make it "AA". That is just the name they put on the door. They are having a meeting. They are not having an AA meeting. If I make coke by leaving out 80% of the ingredients then I am not having a coke, I am having a drink. And putting a label on it that SAYS "coke" does not make it so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john3232
You want to use the 5% success rate toss out by AA central office? Fine but the fact is neither you nor I nor AA central office knows what tomorrow will bring. We've only got today.
No we do not know what tomorrow will bring. Which is why we have a responsibility to make the best informed choices we can here today.
Which is why if someone comes to you with a condition you refer them to a treatment that is LIKELY to alleviate that condition. You do not refer them to a treatment shown to be ineffectual. That is irresponsible to the point of malice.
And as I mentioned, that does not make it "AA". That is just the name they put on the door. They are having a meeting. They are not having an AA meeting. If I make coke by leaving out 80% of the ingredients then I am not having a coke, I am having a drink. And putting a label on it that SAYS "coke" does not make it so.
Under the guidelines of AA the meeting I described above qualifies as AA. There isn’t any one ingredient (outside of perhaps the preamble to get things started) you need to hold a meeting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
...Which is why if someone comes to you with a condition you refer them to a treatment that is LIKELY to alleviate that condition. You do not refer them to a treatment shown to be ineffectual.
Spin them anyway you like but the numbers game simply won't work because they are ever changing. Joe gets again sober today but Jack decides to pick up on and on. The best you can say is a treatment center is more likely to keep you sober if you're an in-patient with no access to booze than outside in the free world.
Under the guidelines of AA the meeting I described above qualifies as AA. There isn’t any one ingredient (outside of perhaps the preamble to get things started) you need to hold a meeting.
Then it is just a meeting. If it has none of the tenets, documents, procedures or programmes associated with AA then it is not AA. Regardless of how you PERSONALLY describe it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john3232
Spin them anyway you like but the numbers game simply won't work because they are ever changing.
Nope they appear to be quite consistent. You do not know a lot about statistics or epidemiology do you?
Then it is just a meeting. If it has none of the tenets, documents, procedures or programmes associated with AA then it is not AA. Regardless of how you PERSONALLY describe it.
I'm following the guidelines of AA on holding a meeting. Not personally defining them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Nope they appear to be quite consistent. You do not know a lot about statistics or epidemiology do you?
Perhaps not but in the case of alcoholism the only stat of importance is where one doesn't pick up a drink today.
I'm following the guidelines of AA on holding a meeting. Not personally defining them.
Except that is not true, and repetition of a falsehood does not magically turn it true either. But there is still the question that you have DODGED many times now. If you strip away the AA mantras, teachings, 12 steps and everything else then what defines AA as any different from any other alcoholics meeting in your mind?
My contention is that they are the same thing. Yours is that they are different. So what defines that difference. How could you distinguish between an AA meeting and any other meeting of that type if you did NOT have the things in it that define AA as AA?
Or will you just dodge this question again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by john3232
Perhaps not but in the case of alcoholism the only stat of importance is where one doesn't pick up a drink today.
Only if you are looking at one individual or are being self centred. But when you look at the big picture in society on what treatments to implement for any given condition you do not look at one individual. Which is why I suggested you do not know a thing about statistics or epidemiology.
But if your stat of importanc eis how many people "do not pick up a drink today" then by AAs own stats, 95% of the people who went to AA WILL pick one up today. Hardly an effective treatment is it. No it is poor, bordering on entirely ineffective, and in many ways positively harmful.
Except that is not true, and repetition of a falsehood does not magically turn it true either. But there is still the question that you have DODGED many times now. If you strip away the AA mantras, teachings, 12 steps and everything else then what defines AA as any different from any other alcoholics meeting in your mind?
My contention is that they are the same thing. Yours is that they are different. So what defines that difference. How could you distinguish between an AA meeting and any other meeting of that type if you did NOT have the things in it that define AA as AA?
Or will you just dodge this question again?
Again you have little understanding of how AA meetings actually work: I print up flyers and go to a few of the popular meetings. When they ask if there are any AA related announcements I say a new meeting will start next Tuesday at 7 at this location. It’s called We Agnostic--The Steps are but Suggested and will be an open meeting (as opposed to closed where only those who identify as alcoholics are allowed to attend.) I pass around or put the flyers on the table and take off to another large meeting to do the same.
I show up Tuesday at 6:30, put the sign on the door, a bag of cookies on the table and start making the coffee I brought.
Around 6: 55 two people walk in and sit down, I chit-chat hoping more will come but by 7:05 that`s it. Just the three of us. I start off saying this is an opening meeting of AA and read the AA preamble. When I finish we go around the room and introduce ourselves. Next I explain this is a topic discussion format, please keep your comments related to alcoholism and no cross-talk.
Now, does anyone have a topic?
One of the members says, Yeah, I`m sick of being told I must work the 12-steps to stay sober!! Let`s talk about how you stay sober if you have only worked just a few or none at all!
And we`re off...
By 7:30 a two more people show up and at 7:55 I say there are no dues or fee but we are self-supporting and pass around a coffee cup.
I tell the group we close the meeting by saying, “Keep it simple one day at a time.” There is no prayer.
Hopefully, the members will have gotten something from the meeting, enjoyed themselves and decide to return.
Sorry but that's an AA meeting as legit as any other regardless of how you might feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
...But if your stat of importance is how many people "do not pick up a drink today" then by AAs own stats, 95% of the people who went to AA WILL pick one up today. Hardly an effective treatment is it. No it is poor, bordering on entirely ineffective, and in many ways positively harmful.
First, I have no quarrel with: After just one month in the Fellowship, 81% of the new members have already dropped out. After three months, 90% have left, and 95% have discontinued attendance inside one year.” (Kolenda, 2003, Golden Text Publishing Company).
Yet, this doesn’t tell the whole story, as many people leave AA after being first introduced, only to return later once they have truly been beaten by their alcoholism.
Second you continue to make the AA program far more difficult that it actually is. I bump into a friend who knows I am in AA who tells me his boss ordered him to seek help because of drinking. He tells me he’s done the research and finds the success rate in AA terrible. He wants to go with XYZ program which touts a much better rate. Sounds great, I say.
Six months later we run into each other again and he tells me XYZ didn’t work and he ended up getting hammered shortly after joining but not to worry. His company is sending him to the best treatment center in the State. Right on with the right on I say. Best of luck.
Another six months pass and again we meet. He's says he's been fired from his job. The treatment center didn't work and he showed up hung over one too many times. He said he also tried try a few AA meetings but hated them. Too cultish, they’re in my face and too much God talk.
I say I understand and have been to such meetings. He offers a few more complaints about AA while asking about my sobriety. I answer and tell him about the AA meeting I started on Tuesday recently.
I say it’s pretty good and maybe check it out or call me sometime if he wants to talk. He says thanks and I wish him luck with the job hunting. Attraction, not promotion is the key.
So Nozz, for all your academic bluster, you truly are laughable unless you have the ability to identity with the alcoholic who still suffers.
Again you have little understanding of how AA meetings actually work
Quite the contrary, I have a LOT of knowledge on the subject, which is why I ask the questions I do. The questions you keep dodging.
And the question AGAIN that you keep dodging is simple: If you have a meeting that you call "AA" that does not follow any of the AA steps or tenets then how is it AA? What distinguishes it as "AA" and not just another meeting of alcoholics for alcoholics?
If you want to label it AA and not just an alcoholics meet up, then there must be some defining characteristic that makes it AA. What is it? Why are you so adamantly dodging answering that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by john3232
So Nozz, for all your academic bluster, you truly are laughable
So rather than address the statistics or answer my direct questions, you have opted now to turn to ad hominem, invective and insult.
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