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V. Good post, thundergod.
Interesting that you opt for Ramesses II as the 'Pharaoh'. Off the top of my head, that is the only one that doesn't have rather serious chronological problems. It struck me that the idea
that Pharaoh sent his army galloping after the Israelites and stayed on shore like Heny VIII watching the mary Rose founder as the waves closed over the best chariotry that PiRamesh could provide.
While his temple proclaims that he defeated the Hittites virtually single -handed, a degree of propaganda 'spin' has been detected. he might well have stayed back in camp listening to the distant sound of battle and making the best story of a 'draw'. One would then expect that he would boastfully proclaim how he chased out those foreigners who were taking all our jobs and homes and bringing plague and disease. But not a word. The explanation is 'less said the better'. I suppose.
Indeed, while the loss of a regiment of chariots, plus footsoldiers, or they'd have caught them long before, was as serious a blow to ramesses as the loss of Augustus'eagles to the germans by Varus, it could be put right, but, as I noted, after Ramesses, there is a gradual decline.after the end of the Ramessid dynasty.
I agree, though a blow, secondborn sons can keep the country running as well as first.
If you read it, you get the impression of the actions being justified by the Bible - writers, but it is as near plunder, robbery, and looting as makes no difference. My Bible says 'despoil'. The Israelites were ready to go, Even if the pharoah was dragging his feet and the people were terrified, the Hebrews could say 'Go and beg Pharoah to let us go'. Instead they get them to hand over all their money. God pushing them to do so. Despoil is right.
Jew, Israelite, Hebrew. we all know what is meant here. And I agree that the figure is to big to be credible. And yes, the pyramids were long since built and temples were the major construction - work. Ramesses II's new capital in the delta is often seen as a link with the need of the Hebrews to make lots of brick, though why they should compromise their own masonry by denying them straw just to make trouble, I can't explain, unless they were made to get their own straw, but that isn't made clear. It is just put as a bit of bloody -mindedness.. It made it no harder to make bricks, but just made it harder to build solid houses.
A blood - polluted Nile would indeed just flow into the med, and would if anything add fertility to the annual mud -deposit.
Did Rameses II's first - born son die before his father? If so, when? I'll check.
it is certainly true that Jesus and Moses (if Ramesses II is a valid date) were born in the time of rulers with an eye to self publication. Whether their actions (in the case of Augustus, annexing Judea as a Romam province and in Rameses' case massive building and military projects) had anything to do with Jesus or Moses is an interesting discussion.
Except they did a much better job. God of Thunder mentions Kiye, One might mention the whole Atenist ruling family. But they were never able to eradicate every single remain, mention or monument.
After a century of archaeological research not a shred (TM )of sound evidence for Moses or the Exodus has turned up. I agree we have wall paintings of evident (Caananite) Semites arriving, but nothing to indicate them ...well, there is the Hyksos dynasty of course, but they have archaeology and it isn't at all Hebrew.
Moses body will not be found because as written in Jude 1:9 NLT Micheal the archangel rebuked the devil and took his body after his death. His body is in heaven. Same as with elijah, enoch & Jesus for example because Moses was just.
I heard that Pharaoh lost Moses at the red sea and then he went to Canaan , and the nations were Moses said he was going , and Pharaoh fought these people for twenty years as Moses was in the wilderness for forty years where they died in the wilderness and only the children went on to Canaan ......Pharaoh made peace with Canaan and went back to Egypt with not Moses ... See God knew Pharaoh was in Canaan, so Moses only followed the plan of God
I heard that Pharaoh lost Moses at the red sea and then he went to Canaan , and the nations were Moses said he was going , and Pharaoh fought these people for twenty years as Moses was in the wilderness for forty years where they died in the wilderness and only the children went on to Canaan ......Pharaoh made peace with Canaan and went back to Egypt with not Moses ... See God knew Pharaoh was in Canaan, so Moses only followed the plan of God
This first born of flesh, this body and it's desires is appointed for punishment as God has appointed it so.
Moses had to decide to be a son of Pharaoh or a son of God and he chose God, and this is the choice we all have to make.
Those plagues are designed to come upon a person who will not commit to God.
Galatians 24These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.â€
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28Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.â€[SIZE=4][/SIZE] 31Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
We all make willing choices to live by the flesh or to live by the spirit. God is saying,'' Come out of her my people, Let my people go.''
The Copts (native Egyptians) still exist, but they now make up less than 10% of Egypt's population.
The present Muslims in Egypt are as 'native' as the Copts. Coptic Christianity was never a 'native' creed, though they preserve elements of the old language. The Arabs converted the Egyptians, they didn't obliterate them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
"I'm curious I never heard anything about what happened to Egypt after Moses left. "
The pharaohs are gone.
The Jews are still here.
Yes, the Egyptian gods are gone, the mummies are gone, the Pharaohs and priests of Amun are gone. The Egyptians are still there.
The Hebrew kings are gone, the prophets are gone, the Sadducees are gone, the Judges, sacrifices and the Temple is gone. The Jews are still there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbundantShift
Moses body will not be found because as written in Jude 1:9 NLT Micheal the archangel rebuked the devil and took his body after his death. His body is in heaven. Same as with elijah, enoch & Jesus for example because Moses was just.
I have a theory.... That "Moses" body has been found.
My theory is that the writers of Exodus (probably in Babylon c 6 B.C.) borrowed the account of Ahmose 1st driving the Hyksos out of Egypt back to Canaan and transformed it into Moses leading his people out of Egypt and back to Canaan.
But it is Just a Theory.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-22-2017 at 05:45 PM..
The present Muslims in Egypt are as 'native' as the Copts. Coptic Christianity was never a 'native' creed, though they preserve elements of the old language. The Arabs converted the Egyptians, they didn't obliterate them.
False. Copts are an ethno-religious group. Most Egyptians are Arab today. Arabs do no originate in Egypt. Many Copts have converted to Islam over the years to escape the horrors of the Shariah, but the ones that have not have stayed relatively isolated from the Arabs because Christian men aren't allowed to marry Muslim women, and Christian women who marry Muslim men tend to be assimilated into Islam, especially with regard to their children.
I think you're confusing Muslim and arab. Persians and Turks may be muslim but they are not Arab (give or take ancient ethnic mixings). The Egyptians practiced Egyptian religion up to c 4th c AD then all converted to Christianity. Then what ...6-7 AD were fairly forcibly converted to Islam. Same people.
The restrictions on interfaith marriage are more to do with religious restrictions than tribal.
P.s (Wiki): ". Ethnoreligious communities define their ethnic identity neither by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation but often through a combination of both" and..."Oxford University historian H. S. Deighton was still writing: The Egyptians are not Arabs, and both they and the Arabs are aware of this fact."
("still" implies a change of view since, but my understanding is that by and large modern Egyptians are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians, not of the Arab armies).
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-22-2017 at 10:33 PM..
I think you're confusing Muslim and arab. Persians and Turks may be muslim but they are not Arab.
The restrictions on interfaith marriage are more to do with religious restrictions than tribal.
I'm not confusing anything, but I see this. There are lots of Christian Arabs (or at least there used to be), and there are lots of Muslims who aren't Arab. I already know that, but most Egyptians have claimed to be Arab, but as the link shows, it's not true. Interesting.
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)of sound evidence for Moses or the Exodus has turned up. I agree we have wall paintings of evident (Caananite) Semites arriving, but nothing to indicate them ...well, there is the Hyksos dynasty of course, but they have archaeology and it isn't at all Hebrew.
That "Moses" body has been found.
