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Old 12-28-2013, 05:41 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,257,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Not only that, but in the next verse he asks, why not do evil so good may come? Do you think he then went on a murder spree?

Or do you think maybe he was speaking hypothetically? If you sit down and read the first few chapter you'll see that no...he wasn't saying he was lying.

It amazes me when people read one verse and run with it...completely out of context. You're like that kid that comes home and sees a note from Mom that says "Do not eat the cake"....so you eat the cake, because when you ignore the first 2 words, it says "eat the cake".
Precisely.

Using the OP's logic, Paul tells us we can commit adultery and murder with Christ's help:

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
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Old 12-28-2013, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,034,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Wait...you mean that those comments weren't about the athiests? Wow...it just fit them so well.
Since the topic of the thread is whether or not Paul lied to his audience, I would have thought it obvious to anyone with average intelligence that the comments referenced Paul.

Apparently not to you however.
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Old 12-28-2013, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,685,010 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
You see, I think there's something deeper going on here. I don't know the term for it but there are people who when, accused of something they are guilty of doing and want to deflect guilt, use sarcasm as a means of defense. So in my example of the man accused of being a child-killer, let's say he killed the child and he knows nobody can prove it, but in an attempt to divert the crowd's attention away from him, he says, "You're always coming at me when anything goes wrong, but you've never been able to prove it. Don't you get tired of always accusing me??" This sends the crowd on their way thinking, "Maybe we ARE unfairly maligning the poor guy."

I think this is what Paul was doing--using sarcasm to cover what he knew to be the truth: that he did sometimes lie in order to get out a message he so passionately believed in. You have to read a little more deeply about Paul's psychology as analyzed by forensic psychologists. They classify him a latent homosexual who hated himself for the direction his body's urges drove him to:



and a pretty evident misogynist. He tells three different accounts of his conversion on the road to Damascus. He's not above telling some lies to covert people to Christianity.
And you would accuse Christians of "reading" things into scripture!!!???

If you want to start a thread pointing out the many differences of the teaching of Paul from that of Jesus, I'm sure we would find ourselves in agreement. You want to point out Paul as a braggart? I'm on the same page with you.

But what you present above is reaching far beyond "the evidence."
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:09 PM
 
18,228 posts, read 16,845,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I really didn't want to waste a post here, but please know this is one of those faith building threads I see so often here. The main reason is yet another atheist runs with non-facts to make a point that he or she believes will destroy the faith of the average Christian

Paul is not saying he is a liar. It is as simple as that. It has been pointed out more than once in this thread. No one in 2000 years has ever suggested that until today, by some poster-non-biblical scholar such as yourself. One can argue that many things about Paul, but no one, except you, is suggesting he is admitting to lying.



From Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

The words of a misogynist? Sounds more like a man calling for equality between social classes and gender.

Sorry. Faith building stuff. Thanks.
Mr5150, you really have to get outside and see what's out there instead of keeping your head buried in your Bible 24/7.

"Paul the misogynist"

https://www.google.com/#q=was+paul+t...e+a+misogynist

Quote:
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.(Timothy 2: 11-12)
Yep, Paul sure believed in equality of men and women all right.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,508,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Mr5150, you really have to get outside and see what's out there instead of keeping your head buried in your Bible 24/7.

"Paul the misogynist"

https://www.google.com/#q=was+paul+t...e+a+misogynist



Yep, Paul sure believed in equality of men and women all right.
I think it odd you cite the bible then tell me to "get outside and see what's out there instead of keeping my head buried in my Bible 24/7".

Umm... are you trying to build my faith, again? Your post saying I should get out of the box of looking at scripture and then you cite scripture is really...umm...not very effective.

//www.city-data.com/forum/32779693-post19.html

I went to your link and found this:

The second site in your general goggle site search.

There was probably no moment in early Christianity where women were totally included as equals with men. Christianity was born and developed in the context of patriarchal social structures in both the Jewish and Hellenistic worlds. But there were radical ideas floating around in early Christianity that suggested that gender hierarchy had been dissolved through baptism into Christ for a new humanity beyond gender.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Chri...-Of-Women.aspx#

Last edited by Mr5150; 12-28-2013 at 07:37 PM..
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:56 PM
 
18,228 posts, read 16,845,451 times
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That women were worshipped as gods and held to be the source of all that is fruitful and bountiful is not a new concept. It has been around since the early Sumerian civilization. Ever hear of Mother Earth and Mother Nature?

The movement to put women "back in their place" was peculiar to Judaism and Christianity back in Paul's time, probably Islam as well. I didn't check on the latter. The current movement among Fundamentalists to put women back in the kitchen and making them baby-makers is again peculiar to Christianity and Islam. I don't fault the Bible because of one man with peculiar, somewhat nutty ideas about how people should live their lives. I fault the corrupt men running the Christian Fundamentalist corporation today who twist the beautiful message of the Bible to suit their own corrupt ends.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,508,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
That women were worshipped as gods and held to be the source of all that is fruitful and bountiful is not a new concept. It has been around since the early Sumerian civilization. Ever hear of Mother Earth and Mother Nature?

The movement to put women "back in their place" was peculiar to Judaism and Christianity back in Paul's time, probably Islam as well. I didn't check on the latter. The current movement among Fundamentalists to put women back in the kitchen and making them baby-makers is again peculiar to Christianity and Islam. I don't fault the Bible because of one man with peculiar, somewhat nutty ideas about how people should live their lives. I fault the corrupt men running the Christian Fundamentalist corporation today who twist the beautiful message of the Bible to suit their own corrupt ends.
Bizzare post. Good night.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,094,900 times
Reputation: 14069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Bizzare post. Good night.
Good work thrill. I think Mr5150 just OD'd on processing your truth and passed out.

He's not used to it.

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Old 12-28-2013, 08:17 PM
 
670 posts, read 813,106 times
Reputation: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Translated: "Okay, so I lie in the message I preach. Doesn't the end, souls being won to Christ, justify the means (lying) I employ?"

Very honest and very bold of Paul. We know that he preached a gospel (salvation by faith alone) completely contrary to Jesus' gospel (salvation and works) and reiterated by James, His brother (salvation and works). James should have had better knowledge of Jesus' message than Paul, James having lived with Jesus and hearing Him preach.

Well, at least Paul comes clean about his lie. The problem is 99% of Christians are so ignorant about what is really in the Bible they have no clue. I was recently talking to my cousin, a passionate fundy, about the fallacy of Matthew's "He shall be called a Nazarene" and she had absolutely no idea about the verse. Her response, "Really, I didn't know that."

If he lied then Paul is a blasphemier.
Any one who blasphemies such things shall never be forgiven.
Nothing can save them from the ultimate sin of blasphemy.

Paul wrote half the New Testament, things such as Romans and Hebrews. and if he lied we know nothing he wrote has any value spiritually.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,508,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Good work thrill. I think Mr5150 just OD'd on processing your truth and passed out.

He's not used to it.

Yawn.
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