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Since god is supposed to be love and lucifer and all angels were good and holy was it god that changed lucifer's nature from good to pure evil?How else can one go from being pure at heart to being all hateful and unable to Love or reason?Satan knows that he is no match for god and at one time he was loved by god and considered family you would think that satan would have at least tried to reason with god or make amends with his father if he hadthe ability to do so. Only one or two things can explain satans disposition first god had to change him and make pure evil taking away his ability to love or be loved or god is constantly inflicting satan with pain which would cause anyone to hate everything and everyone.EITHER way it appears that god is the creator of the evil that exist outside of mankind and indirectly the reason why people fall into temptation or the wilds of the devil.what do you guys think?
I think YHWH is the jealous antichrist Satan who currently dwells as the one God in Heaven to many, to whom will be thrown into the lake of fire just as soon as the individual gets wise to him. I know this from personal experience.
Last edited by Rider's Pantheon; 12-29-2013 at 08:51 PM..
Not that they are, but that they were. If a third of the angels fell, that means:
* Two thirds did not fall and were therefore good and holy
* The other one third had to have been good and holy in order to fall
Or perhaps you are getting at the theological idea that angels are (or at least were) amoral since they lack humanity's moral agency. But if that were true, how would they be able to fall? And from what?
Not that they are, but that they were. If a third of the angels fell, that means:
* Two thirds did not fall and were therefore good and holy
* The other one third had to have been good and holy in order to fall
Or perhaps you are getting at the theological idea that angels are (or at least were) amoral since they lack humanity's moral agency. But if that were true, how would they be able to fall? And from what?
Im just asking questions. The OP made some statements that were assumptions and were not backed up by scripture.
Im not sure I would agree that angels are amoral though--or the idea I think youre stating that morality is of human origin.
Im just asking questions. The OP made some statements that were assumptions and were not backed up by scripture.
Im not sure I would agree that angels are amoral though--or the idea I think youre stating that morality is of human origin.
No, I think you missed mordant's point. If adam and eve were Holy before their fall, then Angels had to be Holy before their fall. Otherwise, the angels in Heaven are not Holy now. (Working within the confines of the Abrahamic theology/mythology)
If the Angels are not Holy now, what is there to stop Satan #2, 3 or 4 sometime in the future after the "End of YHWH's Procrastination/Salvation Plan" ?
......
Judaism and Islam teach that the Angels are in Heaven closer to God (and enjoying it) because they are good and holy. Islam says that Angels are made of light, so their substance makes their nature and position in existence. Unlike Genies, who don't deserve Heaven being created from "smoke-less fire." Of which Satan also shares in his own Fiery substance.
In Judaism the nature of God's messengers is similarly incorruptible, since God should have complete control and foreknowledge of how his messengers should and would be. God is both the Creator of good and evil in the Jewish Scriptures; so only God's commands and wishes matter, God being a jealous immortal, there is no way he would allow one of his immortal and therefore god-qualifying creations to act independently. If God allows Satan, than God's decision must be respected and Satan would still be a minion of God's plan and chosen destiny for this Era and following through with God's foreseen choice of development for the Universe.
Heaven is pure and can't be or have ever been tainted by "unholiness" in many Jewish preternatural ideas.
There is a difference in Islam, were the Garden of Eden's location is quoted as Heaven and Satan (Iblis) says that Allah's ultimate control, authority, and decision-making seduced poor little-old him into doing what Allah himself had foreseen and planned all along: denying Allah's command to worship/serve humans, his banishment from heaven, and the subsequent fall of Satan's wrath (more likely a Genie than an Angel is Islam) upon Eden and Earth.
In Judaism, God was never weak enough to loose a third of his heavenly hosts or even one; nor will He ever.
In Islam, the Angels were never capable of turning against God, as God didn't design that into their nature.
Since god is supposed to be love and lucifer and all angels were good and holy was it god that changed lucifer's nature from good to pure evil?How else can one go from being pure at heart to being all hateful and unable to Love or reason?Satan knows that he is no match for god and at one time he was loved by god and considered family you would think that satan would have at least tried to reason with god or make amends with his father if he hadthe ability to do so. Only one or two things can explain satans disposition first god had to change him and make pure evil taking away his ability to love or be loved or god is constantly inflicting satan with pain which would cause anyone to hate everything and everyone.EITHER way it appears that god is the creator of the evil that exist outside of mankind and indirectly the reason why people fall into temptation or the wilds of the devil.what do you guys think?
Islam --> Satan wasn't an Angel, but was instead something else, i.e. a Genie. In Islam's main book, Satan says that God seduced him into his choices as God wanted things to be the way they are. Satan is often a liar though; who knows why God would allow a quote from him into his Holy Scriptures (Book of Job, etc).
Judaism --> Satan is still an Angel (good v.s. evil barely matter when compared to God's command and ultimate control). Who is to care about good or evil when God is quoted to have created both of them in Judaism's main book? But if you want things from God then God is going to want things back. Satan is there to follow God's commands and work God's harsher magic upon the Earth since for some reason God is sometimes unwilling or incapable of doing it himself.
Christianity --> Angels weren't good and holy until Satan's rebellion separated the bad from the good, and God for some reason needed that instead of having created a third less angels in the first place. That or Angels aren't good and holy, they have free-will like humans, except they enjoy heaven unlike us. The Trinity works in mysterious ways.
Atheism --> Angels don't exist, some people just believe in them because they refuse to accept it otherwise, and religions want your time and money.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 12-30-2013 at 03:37 AM..
God gave the Holy Angels free will , as there is No love in control , Just like God give man free will , as control is an offense ..... some believers say God is in control , but it is only for believers who ask God to give them a lead in the spirit to stay under the plan of God for their lives
I'm not sure I would agree that angels are amoral though--or the idea I think you're stating that morality is of human origin.
I do believe that morality is of human origin, but that wasn't my point here. I'm speaking within my understanding and recollection of evangelical theology. My recollection is that based on I Peter 1:12 ("... even the angels long to look into these things") suggests an outsider's fascination with the plan of redemption and therefore that angels need no redeeming. Therefore they are either incorruptibly holy, or, they are corruptible but unredeemable if they are corrupted, or, they are not even free moral agents in the first place.
I seem to recall all three positions being debated as speculative theology, which they must remain, as there doesn't appear to be any definitive statement in scripture about the moral agency or position of angels in god's scheme of things. I tended to side with those who said angels are corruptible but unredeemable, else how do you explain Satan and demons and the idea that Satan will ultimately not be redeemed? Ah, the ways in which I spent my callow youth ...
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