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Old 01-20-2014, 03:43 PM
 
63,446 posts, read 39,695,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
You just don't get it, do you.
The "Duck Dynasty" thing had nothing to do with Phil's attack on gays. It was about ratings and sensationalism. Remember the group "2 Live Crew" that was heavily censored for their "Me So Horny" song? Because of the censorship and the media buzz, an otherwise mediocre band of the 90's became a pop culture icon.
Controversies like these cause viewership to soar - and that means more advertizing revenue for A&E.
Corporations rarely do anything out of principle or ideology. Everything they do is designed to make money.
After all, why do you think A&E let him back on the show? It's because firing him permanently would not draw people to the show. A company like A&E cannot capitalize on Robertson's controversial opinions if he's not on the show for people to watch. So they brought him back after booting him JUST long enough for the controversy to brew. I wouldn't doubt if Robertson was actually "in on it."
If you really think this incident with Phil Robertson was done for the LGBT community or to ruthlessly "beat down" (oh brother) Christian ideas, you really don't understand how the business world works or its motivations.
There is nothing like controversy and censorship to make something popular.
I am not a stranger to cynicism . . . but this is a truly Machiavellian interpretation of a tragically all-too prevalent attitude rearing its head within a popular reality show. Sadly . . . I am certain that Phil was merely expressing what he feels to be the absolute truth in his world. Although your version would make for a great soap opera/drama-ish plot.
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:44 PM
 
63,446 posts, read 39,695,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
And ignorance is ignorance. And idiocy is idiocy.
And oft the twain shall meet.
And that is what this whole scenario with Phil has been about, Trout.
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:54 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,634 posts, read 14,868,645 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
#1. Homosexuals in the United States of America already have the same rights as anyone else.

#2. You are correct, homosexuality is no better or worse than any other sin.

#3. Since homosexuality is a sin, it is by definition destructive, not only to the person engaging in it, but to society as well.

1. Not really. Members of the LGBT community are often the targets of prejudice, discrimination, inequality, oppression, and persecution. In many states an employer can fire a gay person simply by saying "I fired him/her because he/she is gay." (In my county this would be against the law and the terminated employee can sue ... but in most states and counties no such protection exists.)

2. In my religion, we reject the concept of "sin." You have a right to believe in it, but don't force your beliefs on me.

3. Homosexuality is not a sin. It is a universal form of love that existed in all ages and generations and in every human society throughout the world. It is not destructive, in fact it has inspired some of the most beautiful poetry, literature, works of art and deeds of bravery and courage throughout world history.

My intent is not to dismiss or be disrespectful of the beliefs of others.

On this issue I think most people have made up their minds. Let's not try to "convert" people to our way of thinking. I do not have a problem with people holding the view that an act or a behavior or a sexual orientation is a "sin" - that is an article of their faith - my objection is those religious folks who denounce, ridicule, or scold others for not living according to the accuser's religious dogmas.
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:29 PM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,298,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am not a stranger to cynicism . . . but this is a truly Machiavellian interpretation of a tragically all-too prevalent attitude rearing its head within a popular reality show. Sadly . . . I am certain that Phil was merely expressing what he feels to be the absolute truth in his world. Although your version would make for a great soap opera/drama-ish plot.
Oh, I'm sure Phil's opinon was an honest one.

I just think A&E most likely capitalized on the controversy his opinion brought to the show and milked that cow for all it was worth. When I say that I wouldn't doubt if Phil was "in on it," I meant to say that he could very well have agreed to a "temporary firing" (knowing full well he'd be let back on the show) just to bump ratings.

And if you think corporations have any heart and soul left in today's world of vulture capitalism, well ... all I can say is that our current economic model IS very Machiavellian.

I could go on endlessly about that, citing this and opining about that, but as this is the religion section and not the economic section, I won't hijack the thread.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:10 AM
 
17,842 posts, read 14,320,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy52 View Post
Jesus spoke of marriage many times in the bible.
Many times? Really? Where?
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Old 01-21-2014, 01:21 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,091,921 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
No, Vizio, fascism isn't about "thought control." Fascism is mostly about eliminating the disenters and using fear to keep the rest in line. Either fear or cult of personality.
And we saw what happens when someone dares to question the notion that homosexuality is good and moral. You get shouted down. You're now demonstrating it and you have done so on other threads. You seem to have an issue with me stating the opinion that it is wrong, and you have pointedly come after me, along with 4-5 others in your little mob.
Quote:
Fascism is almost never permissive, either. One of the hallmarks of fascism is a decline in freedoms, not an increase. Thus claiming that ALLOWING gay marriage is fascistic is simply ridiculous. I don't think you really understand what fascism is.
And that is exactly what we are seeing in our society. Biblical Christianity is now being labeled hate speech.
Quote:
No, fascism is not the lack of getting your own way, either. Nor is fascism defined as having to hear opinions you disagree with. What astounds me is how you can whine and boohoo about gay marriage and how you're being so persecuted!! Yet 32 states have actively banned gay marriage. I guess you won't feel satisfied until all 50 states have banned it ... and the opposition sits down and shuts up.
I have no problem with states legalizing it -- if it is the will of the people. But that's not what's happening.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:23 PM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,298,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
And we saw what happens when someone dares to question the notion that homosexuality is good and moral. You get shouted down. You're now demonstrating it and you have done so on other threads. You seem to have an issue with me stating the opinion that it is wrong, and you have pointedly come after me, along with 4-5 others in your little mob.
I've said several times that your brand of Christianity is inherently fascistic - and every time you complain when I use my 1st Amendment rights only proves my point.

I've argued with you, said you were wrong, and explained why I feel that you are in error. But never ONCE did I whine about you expressing your opinions. I disagree with your opinions, yes, but I have never begrudged you for expressing them.

Therein lies a quantum difference between you and I. YOU actually want me to shut up and keep still like a child being punished with a "Time Out." YOU behave as if I'm standing up in the middle of one of your sermons and shouting you down - that somehow expressing MY opinions is wholly inappropriate.

And you wonder why I harp on this issue of fascism so much. Look at what you're saying! And the fact that I am reasonably certain that someone in YOUR little mob keeps reporting my posts to the mods in the hopes of silencing me that way, I just can't abide the irony. People try to get my accusations of fascism deleted - heh - as if THAT doesn't prove my point better than any argument I could actually type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
And that is exactly what we are seeing in our society. Biblical Christianity is now being labeled hate speech.
As it should be. I think it is rotten to the core when people hide behind religion to express their hatred. Do you think JESUS gave two figs about homosexuality? Do you think JESUS hated it so much that he would expend massive amounts of resources to make it one of the centerpieces of his ideology? Because I certainly don't see him doing that in the Bible.

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, I'm not Hebrew. In fact, most people in America are not Hebrew. So WHY should 320 million Americans, 300 million of which are not Hebrew, be forced to follow ancient Hebrew laws? And only certain ones, besides - Hebrew laws hand-picked out of the Bible to justify preconceived hatreds and prejudices that have little, if anything, to do with religion.

You should be happy since I'm not really blaming religion or God for this hate speech. Religion is just an unfortunate bystander in a culture war that you are almost certain to lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I have no problem with states legalizing it -- if it is the will of the people. But that's not what's happening.
Actually, it is happening, and Florida is set to become the next state to allow same-sex marriage. It's only a matter of time for Utah.

The fact is, though, that many states made the gay-marriage gan a constitutional amendment which can be extremely hard to repeal - getting a ballot initiative going requires hundreds of thousands of signatures and a ton of disposable cash. The "other side" of this fight does not have the kind of massive funds and organization (and access to national television) that religion has. It puts "our side" of the fight at a severe disadvantage EVEN if a clear majority would support gay marriage. The authoritarians knew this from the outset which is why they made it an amendment to begin with. As I said before, it is a perversion of the democratic process.
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:02 AM
 
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I don't like the phrase love the sinner hate the sin either. I am a Christian and there are many things that I do not believe are right such as sex outside of marriage. I have watched the debate about homosexual marriage in the US and UK and I don't agree with the re-definition of marriage I made my views known which is my right but I do believe that homosexuals have a right to choose how to live and whether or not to receive the gospel, I don't believe that it is ok to persecute others because you don't agree with their views . I know people who are homosexual and Christian for me these two things are contrary to Gods word but rather than hammering someone with the Bible and telling them how sinful they are I believe in teaching and preaching the full gospel of Jesus Christ this means living in such a way that whoever I come across I show genuine compassion to regardless of whether I agree with their lifestyle and if they are willing I will explain why I have the views that I have on many things not just homosexuality I think many people who say they are Christians have presented the gospel in a negative way. When I share my faith with people, talking about homosexuality doesn't really come at the top of the list unless they ask what my views are but sharing what I believe to be the truth that we all need Jesus Christ as saviour and Lord. That is what I believe but if someone else does not share my belief that is their choice I will not force my belief on them but in turn I don't expect their views to be forced upon me and that is one of the problems in our society. We are constantly told what to think and say and if it doesn't fit in with the majority then you are labelled at extreme or 'phobic' or just a nutcase. My views on many things are not mainstream but they are my views. I care about all that I come into contact with and my aim in life is to live the way that Jesus Christ teaches us to live. The phrase is not a good one but the truth is God hates (rejects) sin and according to the Bible we all sin at times even in our thoughts its just that as Christians sin is not the thing that dominates us anymore. When God speaks of sin in the Bible it means missing HIS standard set out in scripture it isn't always about doing something considered to be bad rather where our motives are and what influences the way we behave etc. I understand that you have probably had negative experiences with Christians and I am sorry that has happened to you but not all Christians are the same and I hope that you don't view all of us as the same. What I would say to anyone that I come across that I know is not a Christian is Do you know that Jesus loves you and has a plan for your life... your response may be that your not interested and that is your choice but please don't let people put you off of hearing the real gospel.
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,756 posts, read 13,286,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith66 View Post
I have watched the debate about homosexual marriage in the US and UK and I don't agree with the re-definition of marriage ... That is what I believe but if someone else does not share my belief that is their choice I will not force my belief on them but in turn I don't expect their views to be forced upon me and that is one of the problems in our society. We are constantly told what to think and say and if it doesn't fit in with the majority then you are labelled at extreme or 'phobic' or just a nutcase. My views on many things are not mainstream but they are my views.
What you are witnessing is the natural evolution of morality in society. When a consensus is reached concerning what is acceptable or unacceptable attitudes, social pressure (at a minimum) is applied upon those who deviate. Our society has reached a consensus of equal rights and tolerance for gays, so when someone suggests that gays should not have equal rights or be tolerated in society, yes, there are consequences to pay.

You are, of course, free to hold a minority position, but you have to count the cost of whether it's worth holding and you have to accept the cost if you run counter to societal consensus. That's not to say that society always gets it "right" or that it doesn't sometimes overreact, but there is no point in whining about being "told what to think and say". Society doesn't like me farting or belching in public, doesn't want to see me dressed in nothing but a loincloth, etc., but is this "being told what to think and say"? In most democratic societies, most of the requirements of public morality are not onerous, or at worst they are annoying. Leaving people alone and treating them equally in their private decisions of sexual orientation is not onerous and it's not even annoying. What is the problem? And why are you specially singled out just because you are a Christian? Wouldn't the same disapproval fall on you if you were a Hindu or an atheist, and espoused the same views of gays?

While gays are increasingly allowed to marry and form family units, straights continue to be allowed to do so, as they always have. By the nature of the beast, straight families will always greatly outnumber gay families. In essence, straights (Christian or otherwise) will continue to do what they have always done and, unlike the shifting racial demographic, they will always be pretty much guaranteed a majority status. ALL that is being asked of us straights is to leave gays alone and quit judging them and to accord them equal rights. Why this is skin off anyone's back is a continuing bafflement to me.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:21 PM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,010,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
ALL that is being asked of us straights is to leave gays alone and quit judging them and to accord them equal rights. Why this is skin off anyone's back is a continuing bafflement to me.
Good post. It's baffling to me as well.

And, considering the fact that the people who are against gays marrying have never explained - on any of these threads - how it's skin off their backs, I think we'll continue to be baffled.

Last edited by DewDropInn; 01-25-2014 at 04:12 PM..
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