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This agonizing and discord over carnal matters in avowedly spiritual organizations boggles my mind. This is a matter of obtaining secular rights and privileges, period. This is a carnal and worldly matter having nothing to do with our spirituality.
This agonizing and discord over carnal matters in avowedly spiritual organizations boggles my mind. This is a matter of obtaining secular rights and privileges, period. This is a carnal and worldly matter having nothing to do with our spirituality.
The gays need to start up their own religion that legally marries same sexes so they then can tell the Pope to stick the Bible where it fits. Boom- problem solved- World saved. Where's my Nobel Peace Prize?
This is a matter of obtaining secular rights and privileges, period.
I agree that the above is how it should be. That it is not is probably the residue of our cultural history. From the dawn of the Middle Ages to the Protestant Revolution, the Catholic Church enjoyed a monopoly on the sanctioning of marriages and they characterized the ceremony as a sacrament. The Protestant Reformation broke up that catholic monopoly, but sustained the tradition of marriages being religious ceremonies.
In the post Enlightenment world, the legality of a marriage became a matter for secular authority, with those involved having the option, but no requirement, of religious trappings.
So while the law defines marriage as a civil contract, there is still a widespread mindset which insists that it is a religious dynamic. That would not be a problem except for those who wish to insist that it is a religious matter for everyone and that religious concerns should be able to define marriage for all, whether they are religious or not.
A recent example of those folks in action was California's latest proposition measure to ban same sex marriages. A previous such initiative had passed by 10 % but was subsequently thrown out by the courts. This time around it passed by only 1 %, and that was in part due to heavy support funding the measure had received from Mormon groups in Utah.
Why the people of Utah feel that they need to define who can marry whom in California eludes me, but nonetheless, there it was.
The gays need to start up their own religion that legally marries same sexes so they then can tell the Pope to stick the Bible where it fits. Boom- problem solved- World saved. Where's my Nobel Peace Prize?
How is Gays starting their own religion going to magically make same sex marriage legal?
There are already Churches that will marry same sex couples.
There is NO plan, it hasn't even been suggested that a Church marry Homosexuals that don't want to, The Catholic Church will NOT marry non Catholics and no one has ever raised a fuss.
This is something the bigots like to spout off, churches will be forced to marry Homosexuals and people wanting to marry their cat.
I still believe those that scream opposition to Homosexuality and same sex marriage are fghting with their own insecurities regarding sex, could be those urges they are taught are EVIL.
Hello JohnnyMack.
Just to make sure we are all on the same page here, you did read my original post (post #11) for which I was issuing a correction, yes? I specified that I don't think churches in the US should be forced to marry same-sex couples, but it IS becoming an issue in some parts of Europe, where there are official state religions. That is something of a different story IMHO. If I am a homosexual and pay taxes that support the state church, is it fair for that church to deny me services rendered to other tax-payers? It is a difficult situation. Not so in the US, where there is no official religion.
As for the "slippery slope" argument made by opponents of same-sex marriage, I agree that there is little merit and it is often extended to the point of absurdity (e.g. marrying one's cat).
In the end I have no idea why US churches are in the business of fighting against same-sex marriage, an idea that I have vocally supported for two decades, ever since the Supreme Court of the State of Hawii first suggested that denying same-sex marriages violated that state's constitution and brought the subject to the attention of the US public for the first time (at least that I knew of). If you really want to know how I feel about it personally, I don't even know why it is debated on a religion forum. It is a matter of civil law. It is a matter of equal protection and civil liberties and in the final analysis has nothing to do with religion.
Thanks.
PS - I do recognize that I am getting off-topic. This thread is nominally about what the pope thinks of same-sex marriage, not what I think or its legal status in the US. To that end, my apologies for steering is off-course.
Nice post. I agree that the case for churches not being forced to do same sex marriages has a case, and I am not sure where I think reasoning comes down. However, I am pretty sure that the weight of the law is for this and this is going to come sooner or later.
I agree that the fallacy of the slippery slope is just scaremongering. While it is true that slippery slope situation have, do and are happening, that is no reason to refuse to do what's right, even if it does in the end mean leading to certain rather odd people marrying their pets. And not only to each other.
I agree that the fallacy of the slippery slope is just scaremongering. While it is true that slippery slope situation have, do and are happening, that is no reason to refuse to do what's right, even if it does in the end mean leading to certain rather odd people marrying their pets. And not only to each other.
When an animal can stand before witnesses and vow their love and devotion for their human partner then there may be a case.
The gays need to start up their own religion that legally marries same sexes so they then can tell the Pope to stick the Bible where it fits. Boom- problem solved- World saved. Where's my Nobel Peace Prize?
Thousands of Churches and Synagogues will already marry gays. They still don't need to care what the Pope says.
The gays need to start up their own religion that legally marries same sexes so they then can tell the Pope to stick the Bible where it fits. Boom- problem solved- World saved. Where's my Nobel Peace Prize?
You can start all the churches you want but churches do not legitimize marriage -- governments do. The license comes from the government, not the church. The church is permitted to conduct marriage rituals by the state.
Of course, you can live like a married couple without that license -- many heterosexuals do, for various reasons, as well as homosexuals. But you don't enjoy the full social acceptance and secular benefits of marriage and that is the inequity that can only be resolved through the law.
The gays need to start up their own religion that legally marries same sexes so they then can tell the Pope to stick the Bible where it fits. Boom- problem solved- World saved. Where's my Nobel Peace Prize?
You think you merit a Nobel Peace prize for proposing a return to the good old "separate but equal" days approach to civil rights?
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