Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-08-2014, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Taos NM
5,342 posts, read 5,086,591 times
Reputation: 6756

Advertisements

This is a complicated subject, but an interesting one. The idea of God seems to be implanted in our inner conscience. I doubt many people would disagree with on that. Where we disagree is whether God or the Universal Conscience put it there or if it evolved to be implanted there.

I think we all can also agree that some aspects of religion are man derived and not of God. It seems like the "what material thing do I give God so he can God do something material for me" mentality has kicked the bucket. I believe science has replaced what religion used to do there. Hence Mesopotamian religions and to a large extent African religion has vanished.

But why has Abrahamic religion dominated the world?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-08-2014, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,825 posts, read 13,361,179 times
Reputation: 9822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
Where we disagree is whether God or the Universal Conscience put it there or if it evolved to be implanted there.
It is entirely explicable by agency inference and confirmation bias. We are connectors of dots, so to speak. We insist on relating things to each other and finding causes even when there is no relation or causal relationship. We don't like gaps in knowledge or understanding, and we don't like counterintuitive data, and we don't like life not being all about us. We fear death and wish to avoid confronting our own morality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
But why has Abrahamic religion dominated the world?
It won the lottery. It's just a meme that is well adapted to human folly rather a bit better than the others, and that had a bit better luck of the draw. For a long time it's had the critical mass of political and financial power and clout, as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2014, 06:14 PM
 
63,570 posts, read 39,862,781 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
This is a complicated subject, but an interesting one. The idea of God seems to be implanted in our inner conscience. I doubt many people would disagree with on that. Where we disagree is whether God or the Universal Conscience put it there or if it evolved to be implanted there.

I think we all can also agree that some aspects of religion are man derived and not of God. It seems like the "what material thing do I give God so he can God do something material for me" mentality has kicked the bucket. I believe science has replaced what religion used to do there. Hence Mesopotamian religions and to a large extent African religion has vanished.
It is entirely explicable by agency inference and confirmation bias. We are connectors of dots, so to speak. We insist on relating things to each other and finding causes even when there is no relation or causal relationship. We don't like gaps in knowledge or understanding, and we don't like counterintuitive data, and we don't like life not being all about us. We fear death and wish to avoid confronting our own morality.
Quote:
But why has Abrahamic religion dominated the world?
It won the lottery. It's just a meme that is well adapted to human folly rather a bit better than the others, and that had a bit better luck of the draw. For a long time it's had the critical mass of political and financial power and clout, as well.
Those general traits of our consciousness do not account for the specifics of the meme evolving through time to ever more sophisticated versions . . . all with the same basic theme. The Abrahamic religions would appear to have won two lotteries . . . because Abraham was promised that it would be so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2014, 06:11 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
This is not a very compelling argument. Buddhism grew out of Hinduism as Christianity grew out of Judaism.

If Judaism has been remarkably successful in surviving even through persecution, the same can be said of Hinduism, which seems of a similar antiquity to Judaism (say pre 8th c BCE) and was systematically targeted by invading Muslims. And now it is the national religion of Bharata.

Buddhism, it may be said, given that it does not evangelize as aggressively as Christianity, and never had a handy nation or two of empire - builders set on using Christianity to culturally exterminate the natives' independence -mentality, has been remarkably persuasive, the world over.

The Abrahamic religions may have won the lottery, but they are not the only ones.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2014, 06:20 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,354,824 times
Reputation: 2988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
This is a complicated subject, but an interesting one. The idea of God seems to be implanted in our inner conscience. I doubt many people would disagree with on that.
Many would. Or at least with your phrasing of it. We have evolved to look at the world with what some have called "Agency Detection". That is to say we look at the world and when an event happens we seek to know who did it and what their intention was.

The evolutionary reasons for this are clear. If you hear a rustle in the bush and assume it to be nothing and it turns out to be a predator then you are dead.

If you hear a rustle in a bush and assume it to be a predator and it is not then you just look a little silly.

Which one Evolution will select for therefore is a no brainer.

So the fact is we have this hyperactive agency detection and we are hard wired to look at things and ask "Who did this and what was their intention?". It is natural therefore that we would look at the universe and apply the same kind of knee jerk non-thinking. And many people do. Hence the impression you have that the "idea of god(s)" are somehow imprinted into us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
I think we all can also agree that some aspects of religion are man derived and not of God.
Given no one, much less yourself, has offered the slightest modicum of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to think there even IS a god.... I think therefore the only conclusion available to us is that ALL, not some, aspects of religion are "man" derived and not "of god(s)".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
But why has Abrahamic religion dominated the world?
It hasnt. Just parts of it. But the reason is clear enough. It was the most fit variant in the memetic selection process, adapted the best, and survived and propogated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2014, 08:19 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
Allow me, for your excellent post, Nozz, to add you to the list of people I can't rep at the moment Yes, I was aware of agency detection often when out for my nocturnal pipe -ups. Despite myself, I jerk and feel alarm at at a sudden movement, an unexpected shape that seems to be watching me.... an inexplicable noise.

I relax and smile. We all do, but I know why I do it, and so do you, Nozz. it is an evolved, instinctive survival mechanism.

But, what Phil. was getting at is what is called the 'Divine instinct'. In part, you are quite right that it is the gap for gods' explanation. anything we can't explain, a god is doing it. When we find out (as we repeatedly do) that there is a natural explanation for lightning, volcanoes, storms, morality, life, the universe and (probably) everything, we strike one more Gap off the list, and they are rapidly running out of gaps.

But, I think there is something else, and it was hinted that it might be related to a sort of evolved need to trust an adult figure. It is this feeling of something more, something bigger, something that is going to solve all our problems, answer all our questions and remove all our worries. It is a very powerful and effective feeling. It can make such a difference to your life, it can help you achieve, endure, and take risks (we hear about the ones that come off. If they don't, well, we don't hear about the prayer that wasn't answered, so often, even if they are still in a condition to talk about it). It works and so, after a fashion does the starting at unexplained shapes and sounds.

But reason tells us that it is a delusion, just as much as is the perceived threat of a waving branch in the moonlight that made me bite through my pipe -stem.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2014, 09:30 AM
 
63,570 posts, read 39,862,781 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
This is not a very compelling argument. Buddhism grew out of Hinduism as Christianity grew out of Judaism.
If Judaism has been remarkably successful in surviving even through persecution, the same can be said of Hinduism, which seems of a similar antiquity to Judaism (say pre 8th c BCE) and was systematically targeted by invading Muslims. And now it is the national religion of Bharata.
Buddhism, it may be said, given that it does not evangelize as aggressively as Christianity, and never had a handy nation or two of empire - builders set on using Christianity to culturally exterminate the natives' independence -mentality, has been remarkably persuasive, the world over.
The Abrahamic religions may have won the lottery, but they are not the only ones.
The evolution of the meme in divergent cultures is not unexpected, Arq. The sophistication is what identifies the winner. Abraham was not promised exclusivity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2014, 10:49 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The evolution of the meme in divergent cultures is not unexpected, Arq. The sophistication is what identifies the winner. Abraham was not promised exclusivity.
I concede a certain sophistication, but this is due to the Romano Greek tradition of history, philosophy and rhetoric. In fact it is rather crude when compared with the sophistication of Buddhist thought - let alone the brain - cracking subtleties of Chan.

Again, the east matches the west in this regard, too. And I repeat that trying to make Christianity the summit, culmination and intended evolutionary result of the spiritual evolution and thus prime candidate for religious adherence does not work too well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2014, 12:11 PM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,307,929 times
Reputation: 4333
Unfortunately, "you must spread reptuation around before you can give it to Arequipa again" but I was able to rep Nozz.

I think you're both right on the money. (So get off the money already so I can take it!)

Christianity survived in large part thanks to brutality. This is one reason why I have repeatedly said that there has never been a truly benevolent theocratic society.

Far too many rulers made Christianity and the belief in it an absolutist law. You HAD to be a Christian - or at least pretend to be - lest you be imprisoned, torturned, and executed. It's amazing how faithful everyone can be when their necks are suddenly on the line.

Christianity is a great religion for brutal rulers and conquerors because the Old Testament is inspiring in that regard. Rulers can read about the conquests of the Israelites with God at their head and realize that they, too, can conquer and win wars if they turn to that same God for wisdom.

And many rulers did precisely that, especially after the fall of Rome. These particular Christian rulers massacred anyone that wasn't Christian and forced people to convert or die. That does a lot to spread the faith.

But that's all I wanted to add given that Arequipa and Nozz already covered all of the bases.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:13 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top