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BUT ... after further thinking, even that wouldn't be 100% solid. Would I be able to tell the difference between the real "God" and an appropriately advanced alien wackjob who was well versed in human religion and was simply posing as God? Would I even have the resources to detect the deception?
This was actually the main premise of the movie, Star Trek V. At the center of this galaxy a being exists who claims to be god. He has the whole crew convinced that they've found and seen god for themselves. Only Captain Kirk sees through it, and the "god" smites him for his insolence. It turns out the being was imprisoned there at some point in the past, to spare the rest of the galaxy his depredations.
Just fiction, of course, and not even the best fiction out of that particular franchise, but it is a valid point. How would you reliably tell god from a sufficiently powerful superior being? In point of fact, the flawed, petulant, violent, insecure, capricious war-god of the Old Testament is really just a very powerful being apart from his claim to be the creator of all things.
My particular denomination taught the dangers of trusting subjective experience as a source of information about god (or anything, really). It was one of the few things I still agree with. If a presence came to me, could read my mind and know the inner longings of my heart better than me, it would render me supremely manipulable. I would probably be unable to retain objectivity or good judgment. It could drop thoughts and feelings into me that would be the equivalent of the perfect drug cocktail. I well remember my unnaturally jovial self, coming down off anesthesia in the hospital, holding forth with the nurses in a manner most uncharacteristic of me. I was in pain, but didn't care that I was in pain. I was out of my mind and loving it. If drugs can do that, what can a being able to manipulate thought do?
I guess this only makes some theist feel that they are right, nothing god could do would prove himself to me. I guess the real question is, should it matter? If god loves me, cares about me, and has prepared a place for me, why is belief even a requirement? My ability to relate to him or not, should not impact his attitude toward me at all. If he really cares what I wear, who I have sex with, or what I eat for breakfast, and if that really impacts whether he wants anything to do with me, then I'm doomed anyway. This notion that god would be sullied by contact with the horrible defiled mass of corruption that is me, renders god "not god" anyway. God should be impervious to me, or able to make me right, or both. This is really his problem, not mine.
This was actually the main premise of the movie, Star Trek V. At the center of this galaxy a being exists who claims to be god. He has the whole crew convinced that they've found and seen god for themselves. Only Captain Kirk sees through it, and the "god" smites him for his insolence. It turns out the being was imprisoned there at some point in the past, to spare the rest of the galaxy his depredations.
Just fiction, of course, and not even the best fiction out of that particular franchise, but it is a valid point. How would you reliably tell god from a sufficiently powerful superior being? In point of fact, the flawed, petulant, violent, insecure, capricious war-god of the Old Testament is really just a very powerful being apart from his claim to be the creator of all things.
I would say though at that point perhaps it may as well be a "god". If something had all the attributes of a "god" (whatever those may be to someone) does it really matter if it is indeed an actual god or something that has all those attributes?
This is something of a cliche but I don't think it has been an active thread on here recently (if ever) so I will ask it.
Christians:
What would make you quit believing in God?
Atheists:
What would make you believe in God?
All responses are welcome, even if they are hypothetical.
I am an atheist. There are many atheists who simply could not believe in a god. If a cloud appeared in the sky overhead, and it took the shape of a man (for example), and it spoke to the person, and then just to prove itself to be god, instantly created a volcano (go with me on this), the person would still not believe it a god. The person would think it was a bad pork chop eaten at dinner creating an illusion, or a brain tumor causing a specter.
I, on the other hand, am ready and willing to believe in a god. The same standards of evidence that I hold to other things, I hold to a god. So if I could find adequate evidence of a god, I would not think it a brain tumor or a bad pork chop, I would be inclined to believe it a god. But as of today, there is no evidence of a god. A few years ago there was a rust patterns on a silo allegedly in the shape of Jesus. Crowds of believers arrived. Such things won't do it for me. Worse, the large religions are rife with irrational tenets and farfetched stories. If there is a god, he can't condemn me to hell for doubting evidence that is minimal and inconsistent. After all, it's his fault; he's the one who gave me the brain.
Nothing will, could, or would ever make me stop believing in God.
Moderator cut: delete My mind is always ready to be changed. On any topic. I would never declare myself to simply be beyond convincing on any topic.
Now I might not _expect_ that my mind will be changed on certain topics. But that does not mean I close my mind to the possibility of it occurring as readily, and seemingly as proudly, as you do.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-27-2014 at 12:04 PM..
Reason: a bit of an insult
Moderator cut: orphaned My mind is always ready to be changed. On any topic. I would never declare myself to simply be beyond convincing on any topic.
Now I might not _expect_ that my mind will be changed on certain topics. But that does not mean I close my mind to the possibility of it occurring as readily, and seemingly as proudly, as you do.
Still, we'll read posts which say that "atheists are so close-minded".
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-27-2014 at 12:04 PM..
Christians:
What would make you quit believing in God?
There is no quitting once you believe in God. Can you deny your own existence in this world? Can you stop believing that the sun will shine tomorrow and the night will come again? Believing in God is like believing certain undeniable facts of everyday life. You do believe that we need to breath and eat to survive, right?
I would say though at that point perhaps it may as well be a "god". If something had all the attributes of a "god" (whatever those may be to someone) does it really matter if it is indeed an actual god or something that has all those attributes?
Everyone defines the concept of god somewhat differently, and that's part of the problem. To me, all-powerful by itself is nothing because might doesn't make right. All knowing by itself is nothing because knowledge is not wisdom. All loving by itself is not nothing, but, hey, my dog is loving, too. The problem is, you put those attributes together, and no being in the universe of suffering that we exist in can qualify as god. It's logically impossible.
The real question is, how would you identify a god that you would want anything to do with at all? What if god is a sadist -- would you even want to attract his interest? The quest for god is one of those "be careful what you ask for" kinds of questions. Assuming there exists even a demigod or godlike creature willing to act as your sky-father and protector within its limitations, is it willing to give you freedom of thought and choice or does it want to micromanage you in exchange for its favors?
I can't imagine a truly godlike being who we would have anything to offer, anyway. Such a being would be so far beyond and above us that our fealty, love, groveling or ritual would mean less than nothing to it. It would not "need" that from us -- or if it did, it would not be all that godlike after all. All relations with such a being would be inherently asymmetrical and unhealthy.
The observable properties of life and the universe that we can observe are consistent with a god who is non-existent, absent, or indifferent. If we are created beings, our creator pays no more mind to us than to a grain of sand among quintillions, nor should we expect it to. It pays less attention to us than we pay to our own children, which begs the question, how unique are we as a sentient race in all the universe? (Answer: probably, not very).
When you consider all this, it is not so much a question of "what would it take" for any one of us to believe; it's first about the viability of the idea of god at all, what would a "real" god even be like, and how would you know it if you saw it. When someone asks "what would it take for you to believe", they are always talking about THEIR god, not someone else's god or the concept of god. One might well turn the question around and ask, "what would it take for you to understand that your god might not be the right one, or even viable?"
With regard to the questions about what would be needed to generate a belief in god or cause a belief in god to cease, we might note that no one has answered "Coming to a public forum to defend my existing position and having my mind changed by the power of the arguments presented by other side."
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