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I think we make too much out of the ancient writings part. I'm saying if tested evidence is found for a specific god, should it automatically be disqualified because of all these ancient texts of religion? Should we discount everything written by ancient peoples? That's all I'm saying concerning the evidence part. Now there was no method like science back in the day, but the people were real people were they not, experience real life as they knew it? They exaggerated some things and made up other things, but all of their experiences wasn't made up. Some things have been lost over time and so forth. So ultimately, if scientific evidence is provided, we shouldn't discount that evidence because it points to a god or gods the ancient people believed in. Yet anyway that's what I'm involved in providing.
Yes they were people, inquisitive perhaps or blindly accepted the made up reasons. Much of what was not understood was attributed to gods, I am sure I need not elaborate here.
If jesus did exist, then even stuff reported back then would not hold up to modern scrutiny. Accepting these accounts as accurate is merely begging the question.
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Of course mathmetically, when you look at string theory, it introduces the possibility of multiple universes. That is the definition of infinite regression, and the point where science breaks down to never being able to answer the origin question. My question to this is, would you accept the answer of infinite regression?
No one knows what the origin was, mere assertions and best guesses. I really do not contemplate this in RL and only chat about it here. Damned certain biblegod is fiction and any other assertion of some alternate divine creator is just another man made concept that has no evidence. There are a number of prizes out there for tangible proof so if anyone had this, the prize would have been claimed by now.
Atheism like theism is very individualistic. Each atheist will have his/her own reasons. Admittedly I spoke only for myself and gave the primary reason I stopped believing in God during my Atheism era.
I suspect nearly every Atheist will have their own #1 reason.
Ok. I forgot you used to be one. Yes, many atheists and indeed agnostics and irreligious theists will have various reasons for their disbelief. If your was the action of theists, I can understand why perhaps you slipped back into belief. But you know that better than me.
Those who have gone through the mill of doubt are the more secure, perhaps we can say, of atheists and the doubt may just stop at organized religion, but still espouse God -belief, or it may go as far as agnosticism, which is (in common if inaccurate terms) doubt about whether a god really does exist, but not going as far as deciding that, if there isn't enough evidence, there is no good reason to believe in one.
That is the way most atheists who think about it enough to post here will have got to it and why it is 46 votes ahead of any other reason. ('Not wanting to be judged', I would guess is a 'reason' foisted upon us by some on the nastier stripe of believer ).
So, what would you say is perhaps the number one reason why someone doesn't believe in God's existence? Now of course, believing God exist or don't exist is not faith. Faith simply mean you trust someone. Yet I'll indulge a little here, just to keep things simple.
I believe the number one reason why people don't believe in God is because they don't have enough evidence for His existence. Think about it, Jesus proved who He was. He told the teachers of the Law that if they didn't believe Him by His words, then at least believe Him through His works, the miracles that He did. Then afterward, the disciples began teaching and doing miracles in His name. These were clear cut evidences that not only did God exist, but He is Yahweh. Today, we don't see that in the world much. A lot of people don't see it at all. I can give testimony on how God delivered me from some things, but that doesn't mean much in just words. I believe if you had miraculous healing going on like it was going on during that time period, many people would believe God exist.
Thump,thump,thump,thump goes the thumb on the old FICTITIOUS black book, which has umpteen editions all claiming different events with umpteen religions all claiming righteousness and brainwashing stupid people for hundreds of years!
I think we make too much out of the ancient writings part. I'm saying if tested evidence is found for a specific god, should it automatically be disqualified because of all these ancient texts of religion? Should we discount everything written by ancient peoples? That's all I'm saying concerning the evidence part. Now there was no method like science back in the day, but the people were real people were they not, experience real life as they knew it? They exaggerated some things and made up other things, but all of their experiences wasn't made up. Some things have been lost over time and so forth. So ultimately, if scientific evidence is provided, we shouldn't discount that evidence because it points to a god or gods the ancient people believed in. Yet anyway that's what I'm involved in providing.
Of course mathematically, when you look at string theory, it introduces the possibility of multiple universes. That is the definition of infinite regression, and the point where science breaks down to never being able to answer the origin question. My question to this is, would you accept the answer of infinite regression?
You are asking a lot of very valid questions. But I don't think that they really count for much in the religion or Personal god -debate.
Now, we have no idea how the universe started. We have no idea what is out there, whether there is Dark matter, multiple universes, the whole sheboodle is a 2d hologram projected from beyond the edge of the universe. We really do not know.
That is no reason to believe in any particular god or religion. I don't see it as a reason to even seriously give weight to a claim that some kind of intelligent mind must have been behind it. I can understand why many may think it probable, but I have too many doubts and queries to really be more than agnostic about it.
About knowing something about gods, the fact that there are so many takes from the sumerian gods, Hindu gods, the Roman gods, the Norse, Egyptian and Mayan gods, makes one doubt that any particular religion and any personal god is real.
Now, I know that the Jewish god has more going for it that the others. It is one, rather than many. It also has a more convincing history than the others. It is for that reason that it had to be taken seriously.
I won't post a 'how I became an atheist' story here, but the bottom line is that, after serious study, the case for even that more convincing god tends to fall apart. While I am waving olive branches like a drowning lunatic at the 'Bible is metaphorical' fraternity, the fact is that, metaphorical is a polite way of saying 'Unfactual'.
That means that all the religions of the book go down. Every last one. And the Gospels went down before even I got started on Exodus.
Faith aside, there is absolutely no reason to translate the possible sortagod that MAY have been involved in the appearance of Everything, the Universe and Life into Jesus, Allah, YHWH or any of the other divine beings.
I think we make too much out of the ancient writings part. I'm saying if tested evidence is found for a specific god, should it automatically be disqualified because of all these ancient texts of religion? Should we discount everything written by ancient peoples? That's all I'm saying concerning the evidence part. Now there was no method like science back in the day, but the people were real people were they not, experience real life as they knew it? They exaggerated some things and made up other things, but all of their experiences wasn't made up. Some things have been lost over time and so forth. So ultimately, if scientific evidence is provided, we shouldn't discount that evidence because it points to a god or gods the ancient people believed in. Yet anyway that's what I'm involved in providing.
The rationale you're speaking of here places unwarranted emphasis on the truth of Christian writings yet still summarily dismisses as "myth" the ancient writings of everyone else.
You ask, "Should we discount everything written by ancient peoples?" Well, that's a good question. Why do Christians discount the ancient writings of the Greeks or the Chinese? Why do Christians dismiss the Hindu Mahabharata as mythology while proclaiming the Bible to be true?
There is simply no reason - aside from cultural bias - to assume that the ancient writings of Hebrews are somehow more valid, more true, and more credible than the ancient writings of the Egyptians, the Mayans, or even the oral traditions of some African tribes.
If we are not going to discount ancient writings, then ALL ancient writings must not be discounted, not just the ones that support your own particular religion.
No one knows what the origin was, mere assertions and best guesses. I really do not contemplate this in RL and only chat about it here. Damned certain biblegod is fiction and any other assertion of some alternate divine creator is just another man made concept that has no evidence. There are a number of prizes out there for tangible proof so if anyone had this, the prize would have been claimed by now.
I think more people should think about our ultimate origins. If people get excited about discovering who their ancestors were, how much more exciting would it be to know where we came from period. I would ascertain another reason for the possibility of a god is the existence of life itself. (Life as is in thinking beings) Finding the answer to that question is just as difficult as finding an answer to the origins of existence. It's those two reasons why we shouldn't throw out the idea of a god existing just yet.
You alluded to if there was evidence, somebody would have already found it by now. I disagree a little bit there. Science is a good method in studying the world, but the amount that we can study is limited due to a couple of factors. One being technology. That is increasing exponentially, and that is one of the reasons why I say there will soon be evidence to look at for the existence of a god. Plus I have some hypothesis I want to test out that haven't been thought of, though they should have been from the Christian standpoint.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
You are asking a lot of very valid questions. But I don't think that they really count for much in the religion or Personal god -debate.
Now, we have no idea how the universe started. We have no idea what is out there, whether there is Dark matter, multiple universes, the whole sheboodle is a 2d hologram projected from beyond the edge of the universe. We really do not know.
That is no reason to believe in any particular god or religion. I don't see it as a reason to even seriously give weight to a claim that some kind of intelligent mind must have been behind it. I can understand why many may think it probable, but I have too many doubts and queries to really be more than agnostic about it.
About knowing something about gods, the fact that there are so many takes from the sumerian gods, Hindu gods, the Roman gods, the Norse, Egyptian and Mayan gods, makes one doubt that any particular religion and any personal god is real.
Now, I know that the Jewish god has more going for it that the others. It is one, rather than many. It also has a more convincing history than the others. It is for that reason that it had to be taken seriously.
I won't post a 'how I became an atheist' story here, but the bottom line is that, after serious study, the case for even that more convincing god tends to fall apart. While I am waving olive branches like a drowning lunatic at the 'Bible is metaphorical' fraternity, the fact is that, metaphorical is a polite way of saying 'Unfactual'.
That means that all the religions of the book go down. Every last one. And the Gospels went down before even I got started on Exodus.
Faith aside, there is absolutely no reason to translate the possible sortagod that MAY have been involved in the appearance of Everything, the Universe and Life into Jesus, Allah, YHWH or any of the other divine beings.
I hear what you're saying, as well as everyone else, but I still think there is too much emphasis on the existence of multiple religions as being evidence that they were all made up in a sense. It could be evidence that we just don't know who the true god or gods are, but that there was an actual history between god and man. Yet the main thing is having testable evidence, that points to a god. If there is such evidence, then the different religions of the world doesn't matter.
As for me, again I have reason to believe the Biblical god is the one. I'm confident there is evidence to be had, testable evidence. Overall let's say I'm confident a god exist, to keep it simple. That there's evidence to suggest this.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
The rationale you're speaking of here places unwarranted emphasis on the truth of Christian writings yet still summarily dismisses as "myth" the ancient writings of everyone else.
You ask, "Should we discount everything written by ancient peoples?" Well, that's a good question. Why do Christians discount the ancient writings of the Greeks or the Chinese? Why do Christians dismiss the Hindu Mahabharata as mythology while proclaiming the Bible to be true?
There is simply no reason - aside from cultural bias - to assume that the ancient writings of Hebrews are somehow more valid, more true, and more credible than the ancient writings of the Egyptians, the Mayans, or even the oral traditions of some African tribes.
If we are not going to discount ancient writings, then ALL ancient writings must not be discounted, not just the ones that support your own particular religion.
I don't dismiss them in the same way an atheist might dismiss them. Ultimately, if a god exists, then the evidence will point to that no matter what. It may not be the God of my biases, but that wouldn't cancel out what is real. The funny thing is, you can't say I have a racial bias or something like that The beliefs I accept are of the Jewish and Israelite people, and not that of my own race and culture.
You alluded to if there was evidence, somebody would have already found it by now. I disagree a little bit there. Science is a good method in studying the world, but the amount that we can study is limited due to a couple of factors. One being technology. That is increasing exponentially, and that is one of the reasons why I say there will soon be evidence to look at for the existence of a god. Plus I have some hypothesis I want to test out that haven't been thought of, though they should have been from the Christian standpoint.
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Ok. One of these days we might look at that. For this thread, I have to say that I have seen nothing that persuades me as evidence for the existence of anything I would be willing to apply the term 'god' to, let alone "God".
So I remain of the view that there is 'not enough evidence'.
I meant scientific sense would say our origin can't have the same fundamental make up as every other law of nature.
All science says is that whatever the laws are that govern the origin of the universe, we simply have not found them yet. More than that it does not say. It certainly does not say anything that even remotely supports the idea of a intentional mind agent that created it.
Everything after that I am afraid you are simply making up on the spot to feed into the confirmation bias of your god agenda.
Just my opinion, but I believe the actions of us Theists is a primary reason Atheists do not believe.
No, the actions of many theists are the primary reason that religion, and the things done in the name of religion, DISGUST us. But this says nothing about belief. One can be perfectly disgusted at the things you people sometimes get up to... and still be deist and think there is a god.
No your actions have nothing to do with our lack of belief in a god. Your lack of any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to support the idea there is a god is the primary reason we do not see any credibility in the claim there is one.
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Allaah(swt) will lead those who desire to be led.
Ah that classic charlatan mantra again. Gotta love the psychological manipulation that is the etymology behind such phrases. It is not that you people lack any evidence for there being a god.... no.... it is that the mark does not desire it enough, or has not engaged in seeking enough, or has not tried hard enough. It is a mantra that shifts the "blame" for your lack of substantiation from the claimant, onto the mark.
Seek and you will find.... open your heart and let god in..... desire to be led......... different words but the same canard that is being played.
Do not insult our intelligence so.
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Admittedly I spoke only for myself and gave the primary reason I stopped believing in God during my Atheism era.
No you did not, you are simply back pedaling now. Your line was "I believe the actions of us Theists is a primary reason Atheists do not believe." not I believe the actions of us Theists is a primary reason I did not believe.
You were not speaking only for yourself there. You were speaking about Atheists in General. And it was false. The poll at the top of the thread alone shows it to be false.
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