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Anyway, Heavenese, did the results of your poll confirm your suspicions?
Yes overall, but I guess the answer of evidence was an obvious one. I originally posted this topic in the Christianity forum, and I believe I may have gotten a different answer there, but I can't confirm that. I believe for most christians, their answer wouldn't have been evidence necessarily, because of what is said in Romans. (About no one having any excuse concerning God's existence)
It's those two reasons why we shouldn't throw out the idea of a god existing just yet.
A lot of athiests haven't actually thrown out the idea of god. What we say is that, untli there is sufficient evidence to warrant god-belief, we don't believe. And we're certainly not going to 'devote our lives" and suchlike to the banal and draconian desires of this supposed god.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
That is increasing exponentially, and that is one of the reasons why I say there will soon be evidence to look at for the existence of a god. Plus I have some hypothesis I want to test out that haven't been thought of, though they should have been from the Christian standpoint.
I think that, if there existed an active God, evidence of its existence would have been found by now. That is to say that if this God actually interfered with our lives, actually cared about what we do, and manifested his power in our daily lives, that evidence would have been discovered. It hasn't. Therefore, if a god does exist, it certainly isn't one that gives a rat's backside what we do - and is NOT the source of our morality.
I'd also point out that to "bet" on technology discovering god some time in the near future is not a very good bet if you like money. As I've said so many times before - religion and magic has never been shown to be the cause of anything. Ever. Why anyone would bet that suddenly now we're going to find that god exists and with a big name tag on his chest that says, "Hello, My Name Is: Yahweh," is a big mystery to me. I just can't get behind the idea that god threw around magic left and right back in the Bronze Age and then just suddenly stopped doing it.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
I hear what you're saying, as well as everyone else, but I still think there is too much emphasis on the existence of multiple religions as being evidence that they were all made up in a sense. It could be evidence that we just don't know who the true god or gods are, but that there was an actual history between god and man.
Why would the SAME god visit different cultures and tell each of them different stories using different names for itself? That sounds more like trolling and sock puppeting on a message board than anything a rational and omni-benevolent god would do. It reminds me of those who would log into a forum using different usernames to sow disharmony and cause friction. Is this what god is doing?
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
Yet the main thing is having testable evidence, that points to a god. If there is such evidence, then the different religions of the world doesn't matter.
Perhaps you think the different religions won't matter - but they will. IF it is ever proven that there is a god, ALL of the major religions will be scrambling to take possession of that deity. Muslims will claim it is Allah, Christians will claim it is Christ, Jews will claim it is Yahweh, pagans will claim it is the Earth Mother or Gaia or some other deity, on and on. It will bring in a wave of ultra-fascistic religious fervor. Freedom will cease to exist and we will revert to a medieval-style society where life is cheap and people are routinely arrested and executed for heresy and blasphemy. And that's just in the Western world.
Globally, there will be inevitable conflicts between religions as each one now believes that the newly discovered god is the god of their particular religion. Wars and brushfire conflicts will erupt as various religions will believe they have a mandate to expand. On and on, etc. etc.
I ferverently hope that we NEVER find evidence for a generic god because I absolutely believe that, should that event occur, we will see the blackest side of human nature.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
As for me, again I have reason to believe the Biblical god is the one. I'm confident there is evidence to be had, testable evidence. Overall let's say I'm confident a god exist, to keep it simple. That there's evidence to suggest this.
Again, that's cultural bias - to say that the Biblical God is the god we'll find. In fact, this certainty is precisely the reason why proving a god exists would result in a time that would make the Dark Ages look positively enlightened by comparison.
If you're confident that the evidence is there, then where is it?
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
I don't dismiss them in the same way an atheist might dismiss them.
How do you think atheists dismiss them? The problem I have with ancient writings is that there are so many stories, so many creation myths, so many legends that I would have to arbitrarily pluck one of those stories out of the crowd and claim that it is true - to the exclusion of all the others. Yet there is absolutely NO reason to assume that any of them are true.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
The funny thing is, you can't say I have a racial bias or something like that The beliefs I accept are of the Jewish and Israelite people, and not that of my own race and culture.
Well, I don't know where you live or what your culture happens to be. However, Americans have overwhelmingly adopted the Hebrew/Israelite religiosity and therefore, as an American, you would be culturally biased to choose the Hebrew legends because most of your family, friends, and neighbors have also chosen them. So while you may not be Hebrew, your culture has embraced the Hebrew legends.
Why would the SAME god visit different cultures and tell each of them different stories using different names for itself? That sounds more like trolling and sock puppeting on a message board than anything a rational and omni-benevolent god would do. It reminds me of those who would log into a forum using different usernames to sow disharmony and cause friction. Is this what god is doing?
The assumption implicit in most Christian (and, I assume any other religion with its own holy book) ideas about written revelation is that god really wants us to know him and connect with him; in part, because s/he/it wants to save us from either the natural consequences of our actions and/or the god's own holiness which would otherwise exclude us from the presence of said god. IF this was the true concern of that god, it would certainly make a far different book from any currently on offer, including the Bible. That people of good conscience are still arguing with each other about much of what it means, including fairly central issues such as the exact nature and mechanism of personal salvation (faith alone? faith plus works? predestined or free will? Once saved always saved, or not?) tells us the Bible is an epic fail.
It's a fail even if you want to argue that the problem is with our feeble minds and rebellious spirits. Because god, who is normally portrayed as totally powerful, knowledgeable and beneficent, has unlimited ability to break through our ignorance or defenses or resistance; they are less than nothing to such a being. And he fails to do so for the most part -- or at all, as far as I'm concerned, since the only people embracing the teachings of scripture do so imperfectly, inconsistently (with themselves and others) and only by putting the mind god presumably gave them in neutral and taking some sort of "leap of faith".
Even if you pick one holy book and ignore the others, none of those books bear the marks of a loving, caring, unlimited being who actually has any sense of urgency about getting through to us so that the vast majority of us can "love him and enjoy him continually".
So aside from the charge of trolling and sock puppeting, we must add the charge of indifference, because even over long stretches of time (at east 2,000 years in the case of the Abrahamic faiths), humanity is not reconciled on any large and unambiguous scale to god. Indeed, humanity isn't even on the same page about who god is and what it wants.
Yes overall, but I guess the answer of evidence was an obvious one. I originally posted this topic in the Christianity forum, and I believe I may have gotten a different answer there, but I can't confirm that.
I believe you are correct. As you know I just added you to the list of yet ANOTHER theist who goes on and on about how much evidence they believe is there.... while being entirely incapable of providing a shred of it.
You people have no idea what your evidence is yet you have firm faith that it exists, whatever it might be. As such.... whatever explanation you theists have in your head for the lack of belief of others..... it is not likely to be due to the lack of evidence.
The most common one I hear from theists is indeed in your poll. Some bleating or other about not liking the idea that a god is out there judging them, and that they have to hold to religious morality. That, for me, is the most common explanations theists seem to spew out when asked why non believers do not believer.
Yes overall, but I guess the answer of evidence was an obvious one. I originally posted this topic in the Christianity forum, and I believe I may have gotten a different answer there, but I can't confirm that. I believe for most christians, their answer wouldn't have been evidence necessarily, because of what is said in Romans. (About no one having any excuse concerning God's existence)
Because The believers take the wonders of nature as all the evidence you need. It really doesn't seem to register with them that the wonders of nature are just saying how wonderful nature is. The case for Creation has been gone over and over and has produced nothing worthwhile to prove a god.
It is true that we don't know how it all began, but that it was done by a god is a hypothesis with little actual merit. And even if we credit creation by a god, which one? In fact Paul should have realized that there was 'no excuse' for ascribing all this stuff to one particular god. Faith is of course no excuse.
A lot of athiests haven't actually thrown out the idea of god. What we say is that, untli there is sufficient evidence to warrant god-belief, we don't believe. And we're certainly not going to 'devote our lives" and suchlike to the banal and draconian desires of this supposed god.
I think that, if there existed an active God, evidence of its existence would have been found by now. That is to say that if this God actually interfered with our lives, actually cared about what we do, and manifested his power in our daily lives, that evidence would have been discovered. It hasn't. Therefore, if a god does exist, it certainly isn't one that gives a rat's backside what we do - and is NOT the source of our morality.
I'd also point out that to "bet" on technology discovering god some time in the near future is not a very good bet if you like money. As I've said so many times before - religion and magic has never been shown to be the cause of anything. Ever. Why anyone would bet that suddenly now we're going to find that god exists and with a big name tag on his chest that says, "Hello, My Name Is: Yahweh," is a big mystery to me. I just can't get behind the idea that god threw around magic left and right back in the Bronze Age and then just suddenly stopped doing it.
Why would the SAME god visit different cultures and tell each of them different stories using different names for itself? That sounds more like trolling and sock puppeting on a message board than anything a rational and omni-benevolent god would do. It reminds me of those who would log into a forum using different usernames to sow disharmony and cause friction. Is this what god is doing?
Perhaps you think the different religions won't matter - but they will. IF it is ever proven that there is a god, ALL of the major religions will be scrambling to take possession of that deity. Muslims will claim it is Allah, Christians will claim it is Christ, Jews will claim it is Yahweh, pagans will claim it is the Earth Mother or Gaia or some other deity, on and on. It will bring in a wave of ultra-fascistic religious fervor. Freedom will cease to exist and we will revert to a medieval-style society where life is cheap and people are routinely arrested and executed for heresy and blasphemy. And that's just in the Western world.
Globally, there will be inevitable conflicts between religions as each one now believes that the newly discovered god is the god of their particular religion. Wars and brushfire conflicts will erupt as various religions will believe they have a mandate to expand. On and on, etc. etc.
I ferverently hope that we NEVER find evidence for a generic god because I absolutely believe that, should that event occur, we will see the blackest side of human nature.
Again, that's cultural bias - to say that the Biblical God is the god we'll find. In fact, this certainty is precisely the reason why proving a god exists would result in a time that would make the Dark Ages look positively enlightened by comparison.
If you're confident that the evidence is there, then where is it?
How do you think atheists dismiss them? The problem I have with ancient writings is that there are so many stories, so many creation myths, so many legends that I would have to arbitrarily pluck one of those stories out of the crowd and claim that it is true - to the exclusion of all the others. Yet there is absolutely NO reason to assume that any of them are true.
Well, I don't know where you live or what your culture happens to be. However, Americans have overwhelmingly adopted the Hebrew/Israelite religiosity and therefore, as an American, you would be culturally biased to choose the Hebrew legends because most of your family, friends, and neighbors have also chosen them. So while you may not be Hebrew, your culture has embraced the Hebrew legends.
Thanks for your response here. I'll talk on some key things you mentioned, I feel this topic is about wrapped up. I agree atheists don't throw out the idea of a god, but want undeniable evidence you can say. Everyone should want undeniable evidence, and knowing God exist is foundational if you are to have faith at all. Though I wouldn't bet against there being people who don't care if God existed or not, and many would have problems with the God of the Bible if it were found out He existed. (That's true right now. Though there is a big misunderstanding concerning God. If anyone wants to know God's plans for mankind, you have to look at what scripture says before the fall. Where was slavery before the fall? Where was sexism before the fall? Where was racism? Where was death? God created the world without those things)
You mentioned if there was an active god involved with life, there would have been evidence for him by now. To keep it simple, I'll only speak about why that wouldn't necessarily be true in reference to my god. Before making a promise to Abraham, the Bible doesn't show God was all that involved concerning things like miracles and so forth. The Bible tells us that God maintains the earth, but we could just say that is the created order He put into effect. We can't actually see God's hand in a thunderstorm, nothing is written in the Bible that literally alludes to that. Hearing God in the thunderstorm was poetic language, such as in the book of Job. Even with things like the flood judgment, it was more of a chain reaction type of event. The only unique event where something of a miracle, or a unique interruption came into play, was at the Tower of Babel. Where God caused the people to not understand each other. Other than that, God did nothing "magical" with the world, and only revealed Himself through many miracles and so forth to the Israelite people. Now theoretically today, He's revealed Himself through Jesus, and technically believers today are to do the same things Jesus did and more. I agree that hasn't been happening in front of cameras or by some other way of confirmation, and christians are supposed to be the best evidence to God's existence.
Ultimately I believe the existence of different ancient religions is evidence to a lost history. This is pretty much textbook oral traditions going astray. Now I wouldn't say this is the reason for all religions, because I said before that some were created even for political reasons. So I don't dismiss other religions in the same sense a lot of atheists would. An atheist may look at all the religions as nothing more than stories, ancient people trying to make sense of their world. I look at them as 20% true, 40% true, and in the Bible's case, 100% in terms to the ultimate origin of the universe. The Bible mentions about their being giants in the land back in Noah's day. The Greek religions mention titans. So I would say Greeks had a distorted history of what actually happened. That's how I see other religions.
Finally if evidence is presented for a god's existence, you stated that all religions would fight to claim him as their own. Perhaps it could lead to something like that, something like an end times scenario. After all it's said in the Bible the antichrist would claim he is god. Yet I don't have a comment for such a scenario. Ultimately, what it should do is give us extreme joy to finally know our origin. Knowing our origin, opens up being able to know about the universe all the way around. I'm sure there are scientists today who don't believe we will ever be able to answer all the questions we have about life and the universe. To me that's a sad thought, considering us being thinking beings. I argue that if God doesn't exist, we will never know our origins at any point in the future.
So those are some of the main points I addressed in your response. I didn't get into the thing about cultural bias. In the long run, even though I'm confident in the God of the Bible being true, if I never produced the evidence, I would have to say the Bible is not true. (Or even if I never admit it, you all can admit it for me, thanks!)
Many now refuse to believe in God because they don't want to follow the rules of God and in effect, they see themselves as their own "god", often a issue with those with narcissistic tendencies believing they should not be denied or held accountable for doing anything that makes them feel good for the moment. I don't believe God exists. I know God exists.
Many now refuse to believe in God because they don't want to follow the rules of God and in effect, they see themselves as their own "god", often a issue with those with narcissistic tendencies believing they should not be denied or held accountable for doing anything that makes them feel good for the moment. I don't believe God exists. I know God exists.
Which God's rules: Odin? Shiva? Allah? Jesus? Jupiter?
Many now refuse to believe in God because they don't want to follow the rules of God and in effect, they see themselves as their own "god", often a issue with those with narcissistic tendencies believing they should not be denied or held accountable for doing anything that makes them feel good for the moment. I don't believe God exists. I know God exists.
Many? According to this poll less than 10% checked that choice.....Show me solid reviewable evidence and I'll join your club.
Many now refuse to believe in God because they don't want to follow the rules of God
Why would I want to follow God's rules? They're immoral. Of course I don't want to follow them and neither should you. BUT ... we atheists realize there is no such thing as "God's rules" - only Man-made rules issued by priests and clergy who prey upon the superstition and intellectual vulnerability of the masses.
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Originally Posted by AnywhereElse
and in effect, they see themselves as their own "god"
I don't see myself as a god of any sort. Well ... unless I'm playing a game on the computer that gives me control of entire planets. Then I might be a kind-of "god" for awhile.
However, I firmly believe my morality is far and away better than anything found in the Bible - which doesn't make me perfect by any stretch, but I strive to be better than what a few Bronze Age desert nomads envisioned for me.
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Originally Posted by AnywhereElse
often a issue with those with narcissistic tendencies believing they should not be denied or held accountable for doing anything that makes them feel good for the moment.
Now this is just false. If we atheist felt we weren't accountable to anyone or anything, we would all be criminals. No, we're accountable to the rest of humanity; I'm accountable to YOU and everyone else I have the potential to affect with my actions. I'm not accountable to some distant and aloof god under the threat of eternal torment. At least when I do good, you know I'm doing it because it's good - and not to appease a divine security camera in the sky.
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Originally Posted by AnywhereElse
I don't believe God exists. I know God exists.
Isn't America grand, where you can believe in your God and I can disbelieve in your God and no one is being arrested?
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The beliefs I accept are of the Jewish and Israelite people, and not that of my own race and culture.
