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Old 05-15-2014, 08:50 PM
 
5,187 posts, read 6,099,643 times
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Proverbs 13:24

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
How do you feel about spanking your child ? If you spare the rod, what form of discipline do you use when the child has done wrong ?
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:35 PM
 
Location: New Jersey, USA
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Hello perry335654.

A harsh look and slightly raised voice are all that is needed for my 5-year-old. Perhaps that will not always be the case, but I certainly don't see any reason to resort to violence, regardless of what the bible says.

You can dismiss it as my personal opinion, but I don't see how people rationalize away the fact that corporal punishment is violence against a child.

Thanks.
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Old 05-16-2014, 02:06 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,869,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654 View Post
Proverbs 13:24

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
How do you feel about spanking your child ? If you spare the rod, what form of discipline do you use when the child has done wrong ?
That was written by someone and to people under the law of Moses.

Under that paradigm it would be better to not spare the rod than to have your child fall under any of the curses of the law.

Today we are not under the law of Moses.
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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A rod is used to guide sheep, not to hit them.
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Old 05-16-2014, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,085 posts, read 12,821,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654 View Post
Proverbs 13:24

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
How do you feel about spanking your child ? If you spare the rod, what form of discipline do you use when the child has done wrong ?
I never, ever, hit my chilld. There were consequences for bad behaviour, but vilolence was not one of them.
It just teaches a child that it's OK to hit if you're bigger,.
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Old 05-16-2014, 07:28 PM
 
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We definitely don't want to spoil the child that is for sure for doing something bad, I believe I have heard of that happening. Oh Johnny, I promise to buy you a nice gift if you don't act up again
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Old 05-16-2014, 08:09 PM
 
Location: New Jersey, USA
618 posts, read 481,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654 View Post
We definitely don't want to spoil the child that is for sure for doing something bad, I believe I have heard of that happening. Oh Johnny, I promise to buy you a nice gift if you don't act up again
Hello again perry335654.

From your post I infer a false dilemma. It is not a matter of choosing between spoiling children with a complete lack of discipline and beating them. If someone is unable to administer effective discipline without violence, I suggest he or she begin addressing the issue with a long look in the mirror.

Thanks.
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Old 05-16-2014, 08:45 PM
 
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No, I am not Catholic, but I do like to read from Proverbs.
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Old 05-17-2014, 08:36 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,535,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artifice32 View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned
Please forgive the long post. Feel free to skip to a section that interests you, if any of them do.

The Danger of Supersessionism.
Besides the mistaken assumption that when one uses a denominational translation, that this somehow labels someone as a member of that demonination......that's a pretty biased way of looking at a body of written work that would be better termed the Hebrew Bible, rather than applying a negative label to it in the form of the "Old" Testament. Supersessionism is the belief that the Christian Church and the Greek Scriptures (the "New" Testament) over-ruled Judaism and the teachings of the Hebrew Bible. It is exactly why the erroneous term "Old" Testament was used: to denigrate the Hebrew Bible and dismiss it. But yet it makes up the very core of Christianity.

But this is a form of cherry-picking. Many Christians will gladly pick and choose what elements of the Hebrew Bible and Judaism that they adopt into their belief system, while rejecting the other parts. Dismissing the Hebrew Bible because of the Pauline belief (check with the Jesus of the Gospel of Matthew on whether the Mosaic Code was ever meant to be dismissed) that we are no longer under the Mosaic Code may apply to specific cultic and ritual mitzvot, but Wisdom Literature does not fall under the Mosaic Code. But this is an entirely different topic that probably shouldn't be addressed in this thread.


The Actual Question of "Sparing the Rod".
Besides the problem of using supersessionism to ignore a passage in the Bible,
my view on the matter is that it doesn't matter where you get your information as long as it is applicable. One does not need divine fiat, either, to follow common sense teachings that fall under the umbrella category of "Wisdom Teachings". That was the entire point of that school of thought - which can be found all the way from Sumeria to Egypt to Israel to Greece: didactic teachings were not dependent on revelation, they were part of common sense and collective wisdom.

Perhaps this very idiomatic translation from the Anchor Bible (non-denominational, by the way!) is a little more balanced and less likely to lead people to see violence in the process necessarily:
He who will not punish his son shows no love for him,
For if he loves him he should be concerned to discipline him.
(Proverbs 13:24, AB Scott)
This is idiomatic because it uses the sense of the passage, rather than being extremely literal. It is true that the word "rod, stick, scepter, club" - šē·ḇěṭ (שֵׁבֶט) is used, and this was a common means of administering punishment - but it also has a meaning related to the holding of authority. In other words, a parent must use their authority as the "scepter-holder" to guide those who are under their authority. It also has a secondary meaning of "tribe", but this isn't really relevant to the present passage. Whether the Biblical author meant the listener to see this double meaning or a physical šē·ḇěṭ and authority in the passage is anyone's guess, but the theme of disciplining a lazy student with a stick is found in most culture's literature - and for many of us raised before Dr. Spock wrote his books that gave children more power than the parents, we all know what the "stick" is for!


The Inherent Violence of Life.
It's very difficult to determine whether one should use physical means of punishment on their children. On the one hand, if you speak to most people under a certain age you will find that they are utterly opposed to it (again, the post-Dr. Spock generation), and those above that age are generally okay with it - having experienced it and not coming out of the experience (hopefully) with sever mental issues from it. But there are mental issues involved, since the point is made that authority is power and that authority holds its power through violence. This is found in ALL elements of society, and follows from the smallest microcosm of social groups to the largest. Animals use violence to eat, defend themselves, sometimes mate, etc. Humans in the their most basic small-scale social form use violence to achieve their means. The Bible even acknowledges that this is part of human, as well as animal, nature. In this next passage concerning God's decision to bring the Flood, "all flesh" literally means "ALL flesh" - animals included:
Now the earth had gone to ruin before God, the earth was filled with wrongdoing,
God saw the earth, and here, it had gone to ruin,
for all flesh had ruined its way upon the earth.

God said to Noah:
An end of all flesh has come before me,
for the earth is filled with wrongdoing through them;
here, I am about to bring ruin upon them, along with the earth.
(Genesis 6:11-13, SB Fox)
Even after the cleansing nature of the Flood and God's plan to being a new creation with one family, he realizes that there is something inherently wrong with human and animal nature - and he must change his original plan of vegetarianism to include the shedding of blood. This passage is from J, for those of you paying attention to that sort of thing, and brings up the curious question of how Noah anticipated the Mosaic Torah with his knowledge of what animals were pure and impure:
Noah built a slaughter-site to YHWH.
He took from all pure animals and from all pure fowl
and offered up offerings upon the altar.
Now YHWH smelled the soothing savor
and YHWH said in his heart:
I will never curse the soil again on humankind's account, since what the human heart forms is evil from its youth;
I will never again strike down all living-things, as I have done....
(Genesis 8:20-21, SB)
Violence and "evil" is a part of human nature. The Priestly passage (6:11-13) that accuses both humans and animals of "ruining" the earth was written after the Yahwist passage (8:20-21) that accuses only humans of having a "heart" that "forms evil from its youth", so perhaps the Priestly Author is expanding on the Yahwist Author's view to include all living things as a theological statement. In the Priestly vision, God never intended for any living thing to commit acts of violence. It is from P (the Priestly Source) that we get the passage in which all living things were meant to be vegetarians:
God said:
Here, I give you
all plants that bear seeds that are upon the face of all the earth,
and all trees in which there is tree fruit that bears seeds,
for you shall they be, for eating:
and also for all the living things of the earth, for all the fowl of the heavens, for all that crawls upon the earth in which there is living being -
all green plants for eating.
It was so.
(Genesis 1:29-30, SB)
This peaceful and "utopian" existence was eventually corrupted when "all flesh had ruined its way upon the earth", and only in some of the Prophet's views of an eschatological end-time wherein the lamb will lie down with the lion, etc, will that original plan of the Creator be re-established.

Continuing from my point that violence is inherent in humans and manifest itself in how they behave from the smallest social setting, you can see that it manifests itself in how we back up our authority: from individuals, from families, from tribes, from cities, from countries, to everything else. Law and order is implicitly backed up by the threat of violence, whether it is openly acknowledge or not. That is what we are, as humans.

Whether we use that aspect of who we are in how we raise our children is up to ourselves, as parents. If we do not, we must come up with some alternative that does not spoil the child into expecting an easy ride throughout all of life, and the idea that life is a utopia. It is not. My personal view is that smacking a child in severe instances is desirable, as long as it does not extend into child abuse. And no - I do not see smacking a child on the bottom as child abuse. That definition has been stretched very far by opponents of the issue. In the end, however, I would not base my actions on an ancient work of literature that was written for entirely different audience in an entirely different time, just BECAUSE the work has gained some sort of authority among a subset of the population. We may, of course, gain some wisdom and insight - and even inspiration - from the great works of the past, but we must also understand that they are - in the end - from the past.

Last edited by june 7th; 08-17-2014 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 05-17-2014, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,309 posts, read 9,911,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654 View Post
Proverbs 13:24

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
How do you feel about spanking your child ? If you spare the rod, what form of discipline do you use when the child has done wrong ?
From Psalm 23: "Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me". What was a shepherd's rod used for -- to beat the sheep, or to direct and defend them? The rod is the symbolic authority of a parent or shepherd, and the actual shepherd's rod is used to drive away predators or to redirect the attention of a wayward sheep heading into the brambles. People who see the rod as an instrument to beat a child with are taking a very small part of its purpose and amplifying it into a general principle. They are also mistaking the physical act of beating with the actual objective, which is guidance, direction and mentoring -- something far more nuanced (and effortful!) than teaching a child to do the right thing simply to avoid being physically abused.

So the obviously illogical concept, "unbeaten children are hated children" is not what is even being taught by the Bible -- we don't even have to move on to observing actual reality and experience to debunk that one.
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