John the Baptist: was he really John the Apostle? (Revelation, gospels, quote)

[june01]

There are clues in John's writings that he may have been the same person. In the book of Revelation he describes the first resurrection as those who were "beheaded" and many think that is referring to being born again spiritually, which happens to all men. There are also numerous descriptions of "prison" for those who are in Hades.

Jesus said that John was greater than all men born of women, but that the least in the kingdom would be greater than he was.

I always thought it odd that John the Baptist would NOT have been born again.

This would imply that a lot of things in the gospel are actually parables, since they are imitating Jesus Christ who also used many parables. True followers of Jesus.

[Vizio]

No. They are 2 different people. John the Baptist was long dead by the time John the Apostle wrote Revelation.

But I'm not following what you're saying regarding the Baptist not being born again, or that the Gospels are parables. You made a bit of a leap there.

[june01]

Jesus told the Pharisees not to look for signs of the kingdom coming because it was "in your midst". Which means that when people are born again they begin to see the kingdom with opened eyes, just like Adam and Eve did.

I also have heard that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is really about only 1 man (like all parables which are about the change of 1 person). The rich man was very poor spiritually and he sat inside of his own gate (prison) in literal torment, with his dog comforting him, until he finally became born again.

[Amaznjohn]

Originally Posted by june01

Jesus told the Pharisees not to look for signs of the kingdom coming because it was "in your midst". Which means that when people are born again they begin to see the kingdom with opened eyes, just like Adam and Eve did.

I also have heard that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is really about only 1 man (like all parables which are about the change of 1 person). The rich man was very poor spiritually and he sat inside of his own gate (prison) in literal torment, with his dog comforting him, until he finally became born again.

That's as good a guess as any. We'll go with that for now.

[godofthunder9010]

Originally Posted by june01

There are clues in John's writings that he may have been the same person. In the book of Revelation he describes the first resurrection as those who were "beheaded" and many think that is referring to being born again spiritually, which happens to all men. There are also numerous descriptions of "prison" for those who are in Hades.

Jesus said that John was greater than all men born of women, but that the least in the kingdom would be greater than he was.

I always thought it odd that John the Baptist would NOT have been born again.

This would imply that a lot of things in the gospel are actually parables, since they are imitating Jesus Christ who also used many parables. True followers of Jesus.

Well, if Christ is the first resurrected human ever, then John the apostle and John the Baptist would of necessity have to be two completely different people. For example, when Peter, James and John were with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, John had long since been decapitated by Herod. James and John are constantly referred to as brothers and sons of Zebedee. John the Baptist was the son of Zacharias and almost certainly an only child.

I would agree that John the Baptist has likely been resurrected by now. Probably even one of the first to be resurrected after Jesus. That doesn't make him John the apostle.

John (into Greek then English for Jonah) was an extremely common first name at the time of Christ, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that there was more than one of them. John Mark for example.

Seems like this thread belongs in the Christianity forum.

[june01]

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

Well, if Christ is the first resurrected human ever, then John the apostle and John the Baptist would of necessity have to be two completely different people. For example, when Peter, James and John were with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, John had long since been decapitated by Herod. James and John are constantly referred to as brothers and sons of Zebedee. John the Baptist was the son of Zacharias and almost certainly an only child.

I would agree that John the Baptist has likely been resurrected by now. Probably even one of the first to be resurrected after Jesus. That doesn't make him John the apostle.

John (into Greek then English for Jonah) was an extremely common first name at the time of Christ, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that there was more than one of them. John Mark for example.

Seems like this thread belongs in the Christianity forum.

No, the beheading is symbolic of spiritual birth. Just like drowning. The prison represents the time before being born again.

John the apostle was the new changed person. Perhaps he had been a Jewish preacher before his conversion, like "John the Baptist" was. The words of John the Baptist were a message about proper behavior. But I forget which gospel recorded his words (maybe Luke). Much of the story is symbolic.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by june01

No, the beheading is symbolic of spiritual birth. Just like drowning. The prison represents the time before being born again.

Where do you get this allegorical understanding? Did you just make it up? Did someone tell you that? Why do you believe it over the simple idea that it's historical?

I had a flat tire a couple weeks ago. Can you allegorize that and tell me what it means?

John the apostle was the new changed person. Perhaps he had been a Jewish preacher before his conversion, like "John the Baptist" was. The words of John the Baptist were a message about proper behavior. But I forget which gospel recorded his words (maybe Luke). Much of the story is symbolic.

umm....what?