Why is "God created the universe" more logical than "The universe sprang into existence by itself"? (Holy Ghost, behavior)

Originally Posted by jimmiej

Agreed. You think it's matter/energy; I think it's

Then stop saying 'everything has source.'

[Clintone]

Originally Posted by jimmiej

No one is saying the creator instantly "poofed" the universe into existence. We can see that wasn't the case, and in the case of Christianity & Judiasm, the Holy Scriptures do not indicate such.

Saying "God created the universe" may not settle any questions of why or how, but the more generalized ID is certainly logical, considering everything has a source, and there are no accidents.

I too have enjoyed talking to you. You are a reasonable, open-minded person.

I think it seems like everything happens for a reason. However, most things don't seem to happen for reasons that are relavent to humans. One thing about the possibility of a sort of endless mindless domino effect of reactions is that I think it gives us reasons why things happen...but unlike with intelligent design, I don't think the endless domino effect goes against as many patterns we see in this reality.

I think it's safe to assume there are other organic life forms in the galaxy...because we've seen organic life forms, and there might not be other intelligent life forms in the galaxy...but it would be reasonable to assume there are because we are intelligent so we know that can happen. Even the most vague beings that might be described as gods tend to have characteristics not seen in nature though.

There are the traditional gods of monotheistic religions that are omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal. That's a whole bunch of characteristics not found in nature.

Even if we slim down these potential designers to be some mysterious intelligence that greatly affects this universe...I still don't think those characteristics have yet been found in nature, to our knowledge.

I don't think we've found intelligence outside of brains yet, or beings that exist in realities outside this one who might have built this reality, or omniscience, or omnipotence, or an intelligence formed of reactions between life forms like a brain in which we are the brain cells, or the abilty to travel back in time before this universe was formed to create it, or the ability to imagine beings in such detail that they live, or the ability to create and modify matter through thought.

The search is interesting...but I don't think we've discovered any of these godly characteristics in nature yet...so I'm going to assume they're not there until they're discovered.

[Horn of ‘83]

Originally Posted by jimmiej

Agreed. You think it's matter/energy; I think it's our creator.

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Then stop saying 'everything has source.'

OK. Everything has a source but the creator. He /she/it is the source.

[Horn of ‘83]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

An accident - yeah!

When we define accident as an event without intention/intelligent cause then a photon from the Sun striking your retina.

An undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
Any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.

All of those things have a cause.

Originally Posted by jimmiej

OK. Everything has a source but the creator. He /she/it is the source.

See your just playing tennis w/out the net - I don't think you think you know what you are talking about.

You are contradicting yourself and then just adjusting your position when I point it out. If only the creator does not need a source then your original statement that you agreed with me is now not true - you just don't know where you stand do you?

Furthermore, this is just special pleading, as already pointed out, and it is just an unsubstantiated claim. The creator may well itself have a creator.

I am getting tired of pointing out your mistakes and assumptions and illogic.

Originally Posted by jimmiej

All of those things have a cause.

Yeah they do! And this is where your other mistake is - causes and accidents are not mutually exclusive. Accidents have causes - causes that are unintentional. Duh!

That is why the 2nd definition I gave you said 'deliberate plan or cause' - operative word - deliberate.

[Horn of ‘83]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

See your just playing tennis w/out the net - I don't think you think you know what you are talking about.

You are contradicting yourself and then just adjusting your position when I point it out. If only the creator does not need a source then your original statement that you agreed with me is now not true - you just don't know where you stand do you?

Furthermore, this is just special pleading, as already pointed out, and it is just an unsubstantiated claim. The creator may well itself have a creator.

I am getting tired of pointing out your mistakes and assumptions and illogic.

At the beginning, you said " don't feed the troll!" Yet, you respond to my every post. If you are tired of responding, don't.

[Horn of ‘83]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Yeah they do! And this is where your other mistake is - causes and accidents are not mutually exclusive. Accidents have causes - causes that are unintentional. Duh!

That is why the 2nd definition I gave you said 'deliberate plan or cause' - operative word - deliberate.

WTH? How old are you? 8?

Originally Posted by jimmiej

At the beginning, you said " don't feed the troll!" Yet, you respond to my every post. If you are tired of responding, don't.

Fine - a mind not open is not worthy of dialogue. I primarily do it for those who will encounter this thread and have to deal with the nonsense.

Have fun wallowing in the mire!

Originally Posted by jimmiej

WTH? How old are you? 8?

Well, it has only been pointed out to you a dozen times - how else do you respond to willful ignorance.

Its been fun!

See ya!