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I don't think we can say for certain that the vast majority do no really believe, but I do think there is a large number of christians who claim to believe but do not really. A lot of people find the idea of Pascal's Wager to be compelling (even if they've never heard the phrase) and simply claim to be christian just in case there is a hell waiting for them. Of course doing that would mean you can trick an all knowing God...
In the rare occasions where someone invites the idea of religious debate in person, I find the theist almost always concedes a lot ground once forced to think about what they really believe and why. There's usually a lot of stuttering, and silent pauses. This isn't because they're dumb, but because a lot of casual christians just haven't thought very hard about what they believe. It's kind of odd that you would claim to believe some kind of power could send you to hell for eternity but yet you don't bother reading up on it.
Personally if I actually believed that stuff then I would be obsessed with understanding every little bit of it.
I think you have to define what Christianity is first. Before I started reading these forums, I thought that would be easy.
I've never seen so many differing views of what makes someone a Christian as when I got into the Christian forum.
I read a study some time ago that something like 80% of Americans claimed to be christian. I always doubted that number and now I'm sure it's not accurate. There are so many opposing views, not everyone can be right.
I must have been an exception. I firmly believed with all my being when I was a Christian. I had no doubts that the bible was the absolute truth and My faith in Christianity was saving me from Hellfire.
Never dreamed that one day I would leave Christianity.
Although during my last 3 years, as a Christian, I did continue "practicing" Christianity because of family. Friends, peer pressure and fear.
And then you converted to a much more restrictive religion after Christianity (at least from a western perspective).
I have to say Woodrow, you are a unique individual, and I mean that in a nice way! I respect your posts and the insight you bring to these forums from the Islamic perspective.
Most people who leave Christianity find solace with something that borders non-belief in general, or a watered down version of Christianity. Yet, you went the other direction. I wish there were other posters of the Islamic persuasion who contributed here with the same vigor you do. I've learned a lot from what you post.
You may have done this earlier in other posts, but could you elaborate on the reasons for your major transformation? Or, link to where you've discussed this before.
I have devoted a great deal into scriptures and know the difference between God's own word His specific direction to men during specific circumstances and even change orders God made very plain to the same man . and men's opinion whom like satan attempt to use the written word to direct men their own way .
Bottom line still remains, Will Jesus recognize you ? And whom lived your life serving?
I know this is true for many people who are part of a group. There is a mix of all sorts in any organization, the only thing that is 100% certain about them ALL is that they like to wear the label.
The vast majority of Christians don't believe the stuff. They only pretend to believe because they don't want to be alienated from their community. They likely grew up as Christians and so most of their long-lasting relations are with other Christians. Better to just go with the status quo.
You garnered a lot of Flak, there. Yet one has to say it like you see it, and there are few if any studies on this subject, if there is even any research.
Now, there are a lot of people who go through the motions but - and I recall that my time in a church choir - I learned that there were two kinds of Christians - the fake ones and the snobby and patronizing ones. Before I was in the Choir, I didn't believe Christianity, after I left, I disliked Christianity.
I did later on meet a Christian who was a nice guy and a good mate of mine, and he helped me a lot with finding out what a crock the Bible was and introducing me to the 'Keyword' method of apologetics: ignoring the argument made, picking up one or two keywords and using them to make a preaching point unrelated to the point put.
This is relevant, interesting and suggestive as it is the same sort of subject -changing we see in politicians faces with dodgy questions, business PR men faced with dodgy questions, indeed, anyone faced with dodgy questions. And it is the more common method of argument- self justification.
Justifying one's political party, one's country, one's business, one's religion and one'self. It is the more common irrational way of thinking and few people think rationally and admit they are wrong because it looks so weak.
And we do so admire strong self -confident people who are utterly confident they are right, even when they talk crud. The wishy -washy who look at both sides get few supporters.
Yes, Religion is like a sort of cut -across politics. It is a nation within and across nations. The loyalty is not to a political or national group, but to a more amorphous nation with alliegence to an invisible king.
If it is the state religion, then anyone not buying into the religion is not part of the nation. No wonder atheists are considered not patriots and those of other religions, doubtful. If it is not the state religion, well, then the sooner it is, the better.
That is relevant to the 'not really believing' OP because it is not so much believing in an invisible ruler whose rules are followed, but belonging to a huge invisible nation which has an invisible leader whose wishes, preferences and intentions coincide pretty much with those of the group. Which is of course what YHWH was in the first place. And still is.
And the proof is in the puddings we get here telling us what God wants, dislikes, is thinking or is going to do. It is nothing to do with learning from scripture, but is justified using the keyword method - cherry -picking quotes that seem to relate to the point being made. Very often contradicted by some other quote and frequently taken out of context.
It is about self justification, not of God but of the person justifying themselves; and the god that so closely matches the preferences, dislikes and beliefs of the person arguing and whose mind so perfectly melds with the person being inspired is quite evidently a god created by that person in their own image.
Which is why another person's God is a silver Stingray and a third is a blue Honda Prius, and the only thing they agree on is that it is a car, it exists and anyone who doesn't believe in it is wrong.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-06-2014 at 06:07 AM..
I don't think that I can agree with that. I definitely don't agree with the notion that they are going through the motions for the sake of being part of the community.
However, I do think that for many, their belief is a very fragile thing and must be protected from any challenges. I believe that this is a major reason why atheists are vilified by many Christians. Not because they think that we are sinners for refusing to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, but because the increasing trend in atheism is worrying. They fear that if an increasing proportion of the population comes to face reason, eventually they will no longer be able to avoid it either.
The vast majority of Christians don't believe the stuff. They only pretend to believe because they don't want to be alienated from their community. They likely grew up as Christians and so most of their long-lasting relations are with other Christians. Better to just go with the status quo.
Not true. Most of them believe the stuff. Even liberal Christians whose beliefs contradict what conservative Christians believe will defend their beliefs Biblically.
What's true is that the vast majority of Christians don't understand the stuff.
They believe it wholeheartedly - they've eaten the bait and swallowed the hook - but if you press them to explain how certain things in which they believe can possibly be true, they eventually clam up and give you an answer that either is, or is not far removed from, "I don't know".
Essentially, they drank the Kool-Aid. I have been having major faith issues lately and I've queried many a Christian about them. Not one person has been able to answer my questions nor even return them with any sort of cogent response. It's always "I don't know" after a while. Heck, I brought my wife to that point in three freaking questions during our last argument. From the time she brought it up to the time I got her to the point of "I don't know", less than 20 seconds had elapsed.
Wife: "I want my husband to be a Christian!"
Me: "What's a Christian?"
Wife: "Someone who believes in Jesus Christ!"
Me: "Who is Jesus Christ?"
Wife: "The son of God!"
Me: "How do you know?"
Wife: "...................*sigh* fine, I DON'T 'know'."
With such a weak knowledge of the underpinnings of your belief system, it can only be concluded that you maintain that belief system either out of a sense of duty (usually to family) or a sense of fear.
The truth most christian won't admit is Paul the distraction.
Several things Paul taught, Jesus did not, and, vise versa.
An honest study of the two will reveal enough of a conflict.
Paul introduced Grace , by his definition God's compromising with sin .
I assure you God does not compromise with sin .
Nor did Jesus ever use the word grace, nor imply it by Paul's definition.
We are not saved by grace, but by obedience , obeying Jesus to start with, and the Holy Spirit Jesus designated to fallow through.
It is a contradiction to say works don't matter, when Jesus plainly stated they do.
Not noble works Paul taught, but the response of obedience The Holy spirit instructs person to person.
Bottom line Jesus is judge, Matthew 7;21,22,23, not Paul or any other man for that matter.
Whom will Jesus say you were serving?
You misunderstand about what Paul taught about grace--because Paul clearly taught--Hebrews10:26--No sacrifice( Jesus') for any who practice sin( worker of iniquity)
Paul will be a judge--there will be 144,000 of them bought from the earth. And he was one.
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