Christian "testimonies" confuse me (souls, churches, atheism, Muslim)
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No amount of evidence will convince the skeptic. I see the same thing over and over: just a knee jerk rejection or explaining away of evidence.
In a recent thread I talked about a vivid dream I had 12 years ago; that came to pass 8 hours later. Detail by detail was the same in real life and the dream. It was suggested my subconscious was at work and cause the real life events to occur. Talk about grasping at straws! That is a most bizarre explanation. Anything but God!
I did not suggest that your subconscious *caused* the real life events. I suggested that your subconscious may have picked up signals that your conscious mind was unaware of that something might happen in real life.
Your interpretation of what I said was incorrect.
I did not suggest that your subconscious *caused* the real life events. I suggested that your subconscious may have picked up signals that your conscious mind was unaware of that something might happen in real life.
Your interpretation of what I said was incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
The first link relies on a dream you had and your getting a new, less stressful job that your dream had told you about. I don't doubt that you had that experience, but there are many possibilities that can explain that dream and your new job without it having been divine intervention. One theory is that this is a manifestation of your subconscious mind. We don't really know why this kind of thing happens, but that doesn't mean we must accept a religious interpretation. It needs more study.
My dream. Pay attention to the details and ask yourself how does the subconscious theory explain the dream and what happened eight hours later.
From 2011.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
True story.
About eight years ago I had the job from hell-working with abused and neglected children and their abusive parents. What made things worse was that I couldn't quit. We had just relocated and there was no going back. Job was very stressful and a bit scary-sometimes the parents made threats.
After two months I prayed and prayed-got serious as I felt I couldn't take it much longer. I did get a sense of peace and the stress subsided. But here is the point of the OP:
On a particular night I had this dream. In the dream my boss called me into her office and said: Mr5150, Kent (the head guy) was wondering if you would be interested in changing departments and work with elderly and disabled adults? The program I was to work in is about enabling these folks to remain safely in their homes. I said yes and then I woke up. The dream was quite vivid. I looked at the clock. It was 3AM.
I went to work. At 11AM (that same day) the boss called me into her office and said: Mr5150, Kent was wondering if you would be interested in changing departments and work with elderly and disabled adults? (my head began to "spin" ) My boss continued and said the program I would assigned to is about enabling these individuals to remain safely in their homes. I said Yes!
*********
So what do you think?
A snag in the spacetime continuum caused by time travelers.
Vaccines.
Or coincidence.
Have you ever thought about how many children were abused/molested and died of disease/starvation during the night that you had your dream? What kind of god would put the effort forth to put that dream in your head hours before the real thing was going to happen, creating no impact, while not putting for the effort to ease the suffering of those children?
My dream. Pay attention to the details and ask yourself how does the subconscious theory explain the dream and what happened eight hours later.
From 2011.
Hey Mr5150,
First, I want you to know that I also like a pie. A lot. In fact, I just had a slice of delicious peanut butter pie.
Second, I'm also happy for you have had an experience that you chalk up to the supernatural and are able to attribute it to God, in this case, Jesus I assume since you are a Christian.
I understand how you feel it was a sign from God. However, there is still reason to not take your subjective experience and apply it to objective truth.
I believe a few details are lacking in your story. Dreams typically are a result of past experiences. It is of no shock that your dream takes part at work. It's a big part of your life. it's also typical for dreams to involve hypothetical situations, in this case the change in title.
While it's quite the coincidence the conversation happened verbatim, I have no way of knowing if he truly did say exactly what your dream told you he would. Also, we often can't remember the exact details of our dreams so I would be skeptical you actually remember exactly what dream Kent said.
You probably were aware there was some shuffling going around and that new positions were opening up. You may have been one of a few that they talked to, also. It just so happened that you got the job.
There's definitely room for skepticism, especially since there is no empirical evidence presented, just subjective experiences.
Still, it's great that you ended up in a better position and that you feel that this one prayer in particular was answered.
Tell me ZMr5150, do you personally believe in psychics?
If not, why not?
If so, why would you not attribute this to that rather than a god experience?
I was going to quietly rep you.... but find I can't. So I'll take that as a sign that I'm supposed to publicly acknowledge you and let you know I think these are great questions from an obviously intelligent mind.
Hopefully Mr5150 decides to respond and answer them. Maybe I need to send some psychic brain waves.... answer.....answer......answer..... (I'd pray that we get an answer but hate taking up God's time on these sorts of things.)
Last edited by DewDropInn; 07-15-2014 at 02:04 PM..
Tell me ZMr5150, do you personally believe in psychics?
If not, why not?
If so, why would you not attribute this to that rather than a god experience?
I believe in psychics. I have concrete proof they exist!
However, the ones that are not fakes contact the spirit world. Spirits, ghosts and what have you. These entities are not God
Quote:
Originally Posted by comm08
Hey Mr5150,
While it's quite the coincidence the conversation happened verbatim, I have no way of knowing if he truly did say exactly what your dream told you he would. Also, we often can't remember the exact details of our dreams so I would be skeptical you actually remember exactly what dream Kent said.
You probably were aware there was some shuffling going around and that new positions were opening up. You may have been one of a few that they talked to, also. It just so happened that you got the job.
There's definitely room for skepticism, especially since there is no empirical evidence presented, just subjective experiences.
Still, it's great that you ended up in a better position and that you feel that this one prayer in particular was answered.
Actually it what was what my boss said, not Kent.
I agree about remembering dreams and the details of them. They all fade in a matter of hours
Which is what made this one dream different. 12 years later and I still remember every detail. The conversation in real life was only a minute or two, so there was not a whole lot to remember. When my boss called me into her office and asked me if I wanted this position I was stunned to say the least.
Typically in my experience when discussing or debating Christianity with Christians the discussion invariably turns to "personal experiences" with God that serve as a "personal testimony" to the existence of Christ and God. Stories about drug addictions being "cured", finding an engagement ring in a large field where it was lost and then praying to find it, then low and behold there is the ring in front of their feet standing on end, getting just the right words to tell a group of people some message after "praying to God" to give just the right words, and the list goes on. As a skeptic, what good evidence does the believer have that these "happenings" were caused by a supernatural being? So Christians, what do you rule out that has you come to the complete certainty that these events were caused by the Christian God?
In my sermon this past week I referenced the book by Ray Comfort that was titled "You can Lead an Atheist to Eveidence, but You Can't Make him Think". The idea is not that atheists are stupid. The idea is that we can "prove" the existence of God to you all we want...but if you're unwilling to see it......there's just not much we can do.
Yes--I believe God exists. I see him working in my life. Does that mean you'll be convinced? Not necessarily. I'm ok with that, though. Convincing you of his existence doesn't mean he doesn't exist or not exist.
That's very convenient isn't it, since finding proof would be a futile effort? I just don't understand why anyone would believe anything so crucial without proof. A "changed life" and a testimony isn't proof of anything, as I'm sure you could hear similar stories from those of the many other religious sects, including the David Karesh followers.
The greatest proof comes from within. When the Holy Spirit convicts you, you just know it is real. There is a bit of a joke that the Holy Spirit can convict people so strongly during the altar call that people will dig their fingernails into the pew holding on. But when they let go and come forward, there is such joy and a sense of freedom. As a fellow believer, you share in that joy when it happens to someone else.
If that sounds too vague then I've heard very specific testimony like my pastor in dire financial need, and an anonymous check comes in the mail to the exact dollar amount needed to pay their bills. No one else need their exact dollar need. Andrew Wommack shares a similar story. You can't tell me that it is just imaginary or wishful thinking.
The greatest proof comes from within. When the Holy Spirit convicts you, you just know it is real. There is a bit of a joke that the Holy Spirit can convict people so strongly during the altar call that people will dig their fingernails into the pew holding on. But when they let go and come forward, there is such joy and a sense of freedom. As a fellow believer, you share in that joy when it happens to someone else.
If that sounds too vague then I've heard very specific testimony like my pastor in dire financial need, and an anonymous check comes in the mail to the exact dollar amount needed to pay their bills. No one else need their exact dollar need. Andrew Wommack shares a similar story. You can't tell me that it is just imaginary or wishful thinking.
But, I can say that its hearsay anecdotal evidence. Instead of sending your pastor X amount of dollars, why would he not send X amount of food to these children? I doubt that your pastor had any more dire need than these children.
Your story about conviction by the Holy Spirit is nothing new to me nor many other atheists on this forum. Many of us experienced the same "moving of the Holy Spirit" that you claim to have experienced and seen. Now, though, we realize that this "movement" is the same experience that billions of other people from thousands of different religions experience every day, even those of Jim Jones and David Karesh's clans. How can you say that their's are not genuine, which I expect you believe, and your's is?
I believe in psychics. I have concrete proof they exist!
You didn't answer the other part of the questions.
If you believe in psychic communication, why rush to a communication from a god?
One that should, as has been mentioned, have better things to do. Or do you think your situation was more deserving of his attention?
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) My boss continued and said the program I would assigned to is about enabling these individuals to remain safely in their homes. I said Yes! 
