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I'm curious why you see this as a good thing? As a believer, I would see it as just the opposite. This country was founded as a Christian nation (I know you disagree, but this is true) and I see this as the reason we have been so blessed. Once we as a nation turn from God, I see only negative things happening.
Ok, I see you've answered my question already. I'll pray for you
This country was NOT founded as a Christian Nation! Read some history books about the founding fathers and deism, and even atheism. Geez!
Well I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but I stated my opinion as clearly as I could. I do believe that only negative things can happen once we (as a nation) turn from God.
Well Pat Robertson is always on TV saying that people died in massive hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc... because they turned their backs on God. My opinion is this.... So not only is God smiting us when we get to judgement day, he's continued his Old Testament style disaster inducement to punish those who turn from him. Except, now, he doesn't come right out and say it like he did back then. Yep, makes perfect sense.
I do believe that only negative things can happen once we (as a nation) turn from God.
And I see only positive things happening with less organized religion in the world.
Europeans are religious, they have christian political parties, but they don't try to force their beliefs on others, as they do in America.
I spend a lot of time in very civilized countries that don't believe in a god thing. I feel much safer in these non-christian countries than I do when I visit the US.
Europeans are religious, they have christian political parties, but they don't try to force their beliefs on others, as they do in America.
Uh, I could be wrong but if you do not count the new 'Eastern' bloc countries who just joined the European Union, the majority of the Europeans are not truly religious.
We just have more than 2 parties (at least in Holland). I mean the atheists here are not forced to vote for a religious party because we also have political parties who are strictly non-religious.
This country was NOT founded as a Christian Nation! Read some history books about the founding fathers and deism, and even atheism. Geez!
Patrick Henry.... “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.†[May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
Patrick Henry.... “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.†[May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
I have read some history books....
1789-Treaty of Tripoli which was written under the Washington and Adams' administrations:
As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..."
I'm not sure why, as an athiest, you would care either way. I may be wrong, but it seems to me it is always the athiests who are trying so hard to disprove a God they supposingly don't even think exists.
Because most atheist have a far bigger problem with organised religion and the hypocrisy it engenders than with god him/her self. I have no problems with people such as the Quakers for example, a religious group which to me is worthy of immense respect despite the fact they believe in God and are Christians ( which I am not). With them I have found tolerance, respect for others ( be they Hindus, Gay, Muslims, whatever) and a great deal of wisdom.
To me most organised religion is almost like a social club one has to join if one does not want to be excluded. I see huge hypocrisy, great intolerance, no respect for others who do not follow or adhere to their beliefs ( so much so that there can be hatred and distrust even amongst different Christian groups). I also see a bunch of people who are so sure they are right they can quote scriptures at will, preach to you, condemn you to the fires of hell for alleged misdeeds, and try to influence the way I live ( often succeeding), trying to legislate on issues which are none of their business . Organised religion has been the scourge of society since its introduction in my opinion.
It has caused some appalling atrocities in the name of god and tends to have a "holier than thou"attitude which grates with most people.
I have no problem with anyone believing in god, the green monster under the bed or little fairies. I realise it brings happiness, comfort and succour to some.
What I have a problem with is the deep rooted influence religion has on society and the pressures to conform.
Religion to me should be a deeply personal and very introspective sort of thing not something to be brandished as a political or social tool .
I see far too many people who claim to be Christians for example and have so little compassion and love it makes me weep. |People who are full of hatred and disrespect for others.
I see people who would rather have expensive buildings, holdings and holdings than give it all to the poor and the needy and meet in someone's home or use a community hall. People who preach and point the finger and expect everyone to cow down to their belief system. People who think only they hold the truth.
So yes I do take a lot of comfort that people who may privately believe in God feel churches and organised religion is not all it's cracked up to be.
Yes I do realise there are many lovely, tolerant, sweet and genuinely loving people out there. I also realise most are not. Organised religion to me is just bout appearances and not actions.
To me most organised religion is almost like a social club one has to join if one does not want to be excluded.
The thing is that in my opinion there practically is no difference between organised religion and organised politics.
I mean are we morally obligated to instruct 'primitive' people the joy of democracy and the free market if their 'undemocratic' social structure and 'un-free' economic system sustained them since the beginning? Or maybe the difference between organised religion and organised politics can only be found in tolerance and lack of fanaticism?
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer
The thing is that in my opinion there practically is no difference between organised religion and organised politics.
I mean are we morally obligated to instruct 'primitive' people the joy of democracy and the free market if their 'undemocratic' social structure and 'un-free' economic system sustained them since the beginning? Or maybe the difference between organised religion and organised politics can only be found in tolerance and lack of fanaticism?
I agree. Organised politics also have their fair share of hypocrisy and "finger pointing".
I guess it goes to show that generally speaking humans are better taken as individuals and that "tribal" attitudes of any kind can be dangerous . Groups in general worry me, the "mob" mentality that goes with it and the loss of individuality which results from it.
As human beings it is our deepest rooted nature to want to "belong" and remain as part of our "herd" but I wish we could all stand back a bit and be able to deeply challenge, question and occasionally oppose the "herd" even if it isn't always to our personal advantage.
"Safety in numbers" is how I guess we justify our little cliques to ourselves, the comfort that being with like-minded people bring, but I too often see narrow-minded, selfish and bigoted behaviour as a result.
It terrifies me that we are so unable to see how destructive blindly following the tribe is.
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Well, in looking at the survey I see all that as a positive thing not a negative. Read the survey results again. However, any mention or "polls" of folks "leaving" church is simply true Christians leaving religion and churchanity/denominations and starting home fellowships and such, not because they hate God or Christianity. There is a movement of God going on which is well documented in James Rutz's book "Mega Shift."
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I may be wrong, but it seems to me it is always the athiests who are trying so hard to disprove a God they supposingly don't even think exists.
