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The Star Spangled Banner has 4 verses. I would venture a guess that the percentage of Americans that know this would be in single digits, and the percentage that knows what the 2nd, 3rd & 4th verses say is <1%.
The Star Spangled Banner wasn't adopted as the National Anthem by Congress until the 1930s.
The Star Spangled Banner is essentially irrelevant to the formation of the country.
Regardless of their personal religious beliefs, the Founding Fathers were pretty clear about what they meant about the separation of church and state. There are clear examples. Read the entirety of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. Read the Treaty of Tripoli (written during the Washington administration and signed by John Adams).
Most relevant, go read what the Supreme Court says the 1st Amendment means. That's really all that counts. The Supreme Court is the final arbiter as to what the Constitution (and its Amendments) mean.
It makes one wonder why anyone would think the founding fathers were so perfect that what they concocted should have been faultless.
Compared to the Bible, pieced together from so many writings in an effort to get it right, but which so many revere even though it's still a confusing and contradictory mess, they did a spectacular job!
Regardless of their personal religious beliefs, the Founding Fathers were pretty clear about what they meant about the separation of church and state. There are clear examples. Read the entirety of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. Read the Treaty of Tripoli (written during the Washington administration and signed by John Adams).
It makes one wonder why anyone would think the founding fathers were so perfect that what they concocted should have been faultless.
Compared to the Bible, pieced together from so many writings in an effort to get it right, but which so many revere even though it's still a confusing and contradictory mess, they did a spectacular job!
IMO the Founding Fathers did an excellent job getting the nation started but they would probably be shocked and dismayed at the reverence we have for them. There were at least a couple of incidents prior to the civil war that almost turned ugly (militia called up in GA when the federal government declared their illegal treaty with the Creeks invalid for example) so this notion that what they did has stood the test of time is more sentimental than factual. 130 slaves were sold in settling Jefferson's estate after his death; he wasn't really completely sold on liberty and justice for all. Plenty of skeletons in other closets also.
But they were smart enough to say GOVERNMENT shall not ENDORSE any religion or legislate which religions are legal.
As Jefferson wote--
'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
But it is at least up to interpretation or debate if they meant that government must not acknowledge a God or have anything to do with religion. Atheists want the wall so high that it wants the government to pretend that Christianity never existed or influenced our leaders. Government buildings can't even acknowledge the influence of the ten commandments anymore.
Christianity has always been the dominant religion in this country and it is part of our inheritance and tradition. We still get days off work to celebrate Christ's birth, our leaders still swear oaths on a Bible and say "so help me God", and our president calls on the nation to pray in times of crisis. The Prohibition era is another example of Christian influence on government.
But it is at least up to interpretation or debate if they meant that government must not acknowledge a God or have anything to do with religion. Atheists want the wall so high that it wants the government to pretend that Christianity never existed or influenced our leaders. Government buildings can't even acknowledge the influence of the ten commandments anymore.
Christianity has always been the dominant religion in this country and it is part of our inheritance and tradition. We still get days off work to celebrate Christ's birth, our leaders still swear oaths on a Bible and say "so help me God", and our president calls on the nation to pray in times of crisis. The Prohibition era is another example of Christian influence on government.
People swear their oaths of office with their hand on a Bible (or more particularly on the holy book of their own personal faith), and say "so help me God" because that is a tradition that George Washington started. There is no requirement in the Constitution to use any book, and the phrase "so help me God" is not in the oath of office. George Washington insisted on doing it that way because that is how a man assumes his obligations in a Masonic Lodge, and, since George Washington was a lifelong Mason, that was how he was comfortable doing it. As a matter of fact, he insisted on it, and a runner was sent to a Masonic Lodge to fetch a Bible for his use when he was inaugurated for the first time. So, in essence, every time a politician puts his hand on the Bible and says "so help me God," he is acknowledging the Masonic membership of George Washington.
That Prohibition thing didn't work out very well, as I recall. It essentially created the power of organized crime, caused a vast amount of violence and thousands of deaths, and was overturned a mere decade later.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand Between their loved home and the war’s desolation! Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.” And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
Written by Francis Scott Key, who was not one of the Founders.
In God we trust didn't become the official motto until 1956.
There is actually a lot of irony in this verse. Such as the reference to freemen, at a time when slavery was legal. Or "conquer we must when our cause it is just"...what made it just to conquer the native americans and steal their land?
Examine their symbols. If you think their beliefs had nothing to do with the way they saw things and the way they wanted things to be, then you are misleading yourself.
I think part of the argument here is that those who abhor Christianity want to harken back to the FF and the constitution as a way of arguing against America being a 'Christian nation' as if the rest of the world cares, or sees America in that way.
Why not do both? What is hard about examining the symbols they used in relation to the possibility that they were motivated by religious/spiritual agenda, which also placed them in the roles they desired to be in?
Obviously because one has the force of law behind it and the other is just people guessing at what they think something means, or taking a stand on what it means based on some current political agenda. One has value, the other is mere window dressing.
Quote:
Do you think they would have realized that the religion business might be useful to the political business?
Do you think they realized that the religion business would be able to get involved with the political business and even influence it away from their own agenda?
What safeguards do you see were set in place in order for this probability not to overtly interfere with that agenda?
I note that your posting technique is to ask a zillion questions, hoping to put your opponent on the defensive and keep the initiative for yourself.
So, rather than falling for this, I reference you to my first paragraph above to cover all your questions.
The law counts, the rest is fluff. The anthem is fluff. Motto on the dollar? Fluff. That Congress opens its sessions with a prayer....fluff. How religious or irreligious the Constitutional authors were...fluff.
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