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Hello Miss Hepburn.
No, I don't believe it's at all like saying that god works in mysterious ways.
On the contrary, it's like saying that there is no god, and the only thing that
works in mysterious ways is the human mind.
Thanks.
I respect that.
I didn't know you were an atheist, unless I got that wrong ...sorry.
But, I, myself, do not think the mind is mysterious AT ALL!
It is very very very simple and, oh, so transparent!
Suffering always has had one of two results .
1 bitterness
2 it will draw you closer to God and refine you..
I am neither bitter nor a believer in god, despite considerable suffering. It has diminished me as a human being, taken up my time to no good purpose, and reduced my optimism, but it has not made me bitter. In fact I have avoided bitterness precisely by ceasing to believe in god. Life is too short to be angry with imaginary beings for failing to live up to imagined expectations.
You insist on seeing everything in terms of loving or hating god, being pleased or embittered towards him. All because of the failed epistemology called faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clickstack
The most understanding and compassionate people you will find will always be people who have suffered . Without suffering you will never be able to help another person.
Suffering provides a more intimate basis for compassion towards those who suffer similarly, it's true. But not the only basis. In fact not even the best. The best basis for compassion is empathy and social reciprocity. Understanding that you ARE your brother's keeper allows you to enter into their suffering even if you haven't personally experienced it. It allows you to be present for and bear witness to their suffering without flinching. It allows you to avoid the pitfall of judging or blaming people for their suffering because their suffering makes you uncomfortable and/or gives the lie to the false claims of religion to be a salve for suffering. Suffering is neither personal nor inconvenient to the unbeliever. It is just stuff happening. Stuff that, unlike as you suggest is NOT inevitable and need not always be with us because it is both possible and a personal responsibility for us to reduce human suffering in every way possible. I believe we can and should strive for a better world with less suffering. I don't see suffering as ennobling and necessary, but as harmful yet overcomeable.
I am neither bitter nor a believer in god, despite considerable suffering. It has diminished me as a human being, taken up my time to no good purpose, and reduced my optimism, but it has not made me bitter. In fact I have avoided bitterness precisely by ceasing to believe in god. Life is too short to be angry with imaginary beings for failing to live up to imagined expectations.
You insist on seeing everything in terms of loving or hating god, being pleased or embittered towards him. All because of the failed epistemology called faith.
Suffering provides a more intimate basis for compassion towards those who suffer similarly, it's true. But not the only basis. In fact not even the best. The best basis for compassion is empathy and social reciprocity. Understanding that you ARE your brother's keeper allows you to enter into their suffering even if you haven't personally experienced it. It allows you to be present for and bear witness to their suffering without flinching. It allows you to avoid the pitfall of judging or blaming people for their suffering because their suffering makes you uncomfortable and/or gives the lie to the false claims of religion to be a slave for suffering. Suffering is neither personal nor inconvenient to the unbeliever. It is just stuff happening. Stuff that, unlike as you suggest is NOT inevitable and need not always be with us because it is both possible and a personal responsibility for us to reduce human suffering in every way possible. I believe we can and should strive for a better world with less suffering. I don't see suffering as ennobling and necessary, but as harmful yet overcomeable.
You ceased to believe in God , so you admit to having believed in God .
You tried to avoid bitterness by ceasing , you say you overcame it by ceasing .
My point exactly.
But that doesn't make you right.
You ceased to believe in God , so you admit to having believed in God .
You tried to avoid bitterness by ceasing , you say you overcame it by ceasing .
My point exactly.
But that doesn't make you right.
I did not opine that I was right, only that there are many more than two ways to respond to suffering.
I also suggested a better basis for understanding and dealing with suffering, which I see that you don't want to acknowledge much less remark upon.
I will at least give you credit for avoiding the typical "no true Scotsman" fallacy that usually crops up when I "admit to having believed in god". Thanks for that.
I did not opine that I was right, only that there are many more than two ways to respond to suffering.
I also suggested a better basis for understanding and dealing with suffering, which I see that you don't want to acknowledge much less remark upon.
I will at least give you credit for avoiding the typical "no true Scotsman" fallacy that usually crops up when I "admit to having believed in god". Thanks for that.
I know what it's like to be on the very edge ,
Where my bitterness began to grow to the point of letting go an walk away .
But I tried one last thing .
How do you explain (whether by religion or spirituality) the fact that some of the most innocent people get horrible afflictions, like cancer?
For example, your grandma who never did a horrible thing in her life, tried to eat as healthy as she knew how, was sweet to everyone, and never took drugs or smoked gets lung cancer or liver cancer.
Or.. a child has leukemia.. what did they do to deserve that?
On the other hand, the heroin addict or thief or murderer never gets sick.
Obviously these are hypothetical but I wonder what you think.
Don't we always get what we deserve?
I was praying the Rosary once and I heard a voice say, "pray for the soul and not the body." The way I conceptualize the issue is this body is temporary and subject to pain, decay and death for all of us. There is not one of us who can escape it. The beauty is the soul is eternal. What does this mean for any of us? The short time we have here will go away in a matter of time, but our soul will live on infinitely. In a thousand years from now will it really matter we had Cancer on Earth or will Earth just be a bad memory in general, if that.
I was praying the Rosary once and I heard a voice say, "pray for the soul and not the body." The way I conceptualize the issue is this body is temporary and subject to pain, decay and death for all of us. There is not one of us who can escape it. The beauty is the soul is eternal. What does this mean for any of us? The short time we have here will go away in a matter of time, but our soul will live on infinitely. In a thousand years from now will it really matter we had Cancer on Earth or will Earth just be a bad memory in general, if that.
What's 70 years compared to infinity? Nothing!
The only thing that would matter is getting into the good afterlife and avoiding the bad one.
In fact, it would be perfectly rational to spend 100% of our time and energy making sure we get into the good afterlife (and avoid the bad one). Improving the human condition on earth would just be silly...or even dangerous if it distracted us from getting into the good afterlife.
I know what it's like to be on the very edge ,
Where my bitterness began to grow to the point of letting go an walk away .
But I tried one last thing .
Surrender
You have not listened to a single thing I have said.
I respect that.
I didn't know you were an atheist, unless I got that wrong ...sorry.
But, I, myself, do not think the mind is mysterious AT ALL!
It is very very very simple and, oh, so transparent!
Hello Miss Hepburn.
I have walked the fence for some time, so the misunderstanding is to be expected. At this point I see no reason to believe that earthly activities have any divine guidance and, as Matt Dillahunty argues, "a god that does not manifest in reality is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist."
Thanks.
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