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But the icing on these "equality cakes" is the whining of Viz and others of his little, doomed-to-extinction sub-sect.
The more some people post on this topic, the more they reveal that they are the 2015 version of the 1950-60 era states-rights-loving, 14-amendment-hating fundamentalists. They held up their Bibles and told blacks they were not welcome in their churches and their businesses. Today, only the minority has changed. The target is now gays.
The people from 60 years ago are now seen for what they were: bigots. Bigots who used religion to suppress human beings and deny them their rights as citizens. I've every confidence that in 50 years, maybe sooner, the people who deny cake, and a seat in the pew, to gays will be seen the same way. The Millennials fill me with hope. They refuse to buy into the prejudice and discrimination.
I think a more substantial question is posed for a wedding photographer, who must indeed avidly participate in the ceremony.
?
The bride, groom, attendants and officiant participate in the ceremony.
The photographer selling a product....his services .
Just because he is there seeing it and making a record of it, that is not the same as participating in it.
Nobody, including any government agency, is going to force you to accept a request to be the best man, for instance, at a gay wedding or fine you for refusing.
If you had your way, you would see it completely exterminated from the Constitution. I'm starting to see exactly why atheists are so passionately defensive of their gay friends. They want to raise the banner of discrimination as a vehicle to destroy religion. Their COMPLETE lack of respect for people's sacred beliefs is evidence enough for this end game.
If a bakery refused to sell a wedding cake to a Christian Fundamentalist couple based on the owner's religious belief that fundamentalist were evil or an atheist baker refused the same couple those bakers should and must face the same charges that the baker that refused the same sex couple faced. Jeff, you and others do not recognize that those who oppose the special religious freedom for business owners you want are not doing it because we hate Christians but are opposed to that special freedom on the grounds that businesses must not discriminate against any protected group. You certainly can refuse to serve a disorderly customer, some one very rude to you, some one who you in the past have had bad dealings with but you cannot refuse to serve an entire group of people. It is not about being anti relgious or anti Christian no matter how often you state that. It is about the rights of all customers to be able to go into a business and be treated the same as any other customer that goes into that business, no separate lunch counter, no signs on the door prohibiting their entry and no exclusion on which products that group can buy (laws on age restriction on tobacco and alcohol do not apply)
I am of Jewish background, a Jewish butcher can refuse to sell pork in his business. If he does carry pork he cannot refuse to sell it to me because he thinks that as I am ethnically Jewish I should not eat pork, nor can a Christian butcher refuse to sell me pork if they sell pork. As either an atheist or a person of Jewish background I should be able to enter any business and purchase the products they have for sale without the owner refusing to sell me those products based on his own beliefs.
If those beliefs are so sacred do you want those employed in the private or public sector to be able to recognize those rights too? If not why just a business person? If employees can exercise relgious beliefs to exclude others from goods and services are there limits to which goods and services can be excluded?
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If you had your way, you would see it completely exterminated from the Constitution. I'm starting to see exactly why atheists are so passionately defensive of their gay friends. They want to raise the banner of discrimination as a vehicle to destroy religion. Their COMPLETE lack of respect for people's sacred beliefs is evidence enough for this end game.
'Sacred beliefs' don't require or deserve respect, ever. I'm pretty sure you do not respect the Wiccan sacred belief system.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
And how is that not a limit on freedom of speech? We all get that you have absolutely no problem with punishing Christians for their beliefs. I'm sure you would even find some rationalization for the owners of Sweet Cakes to be burned alive as punishment for their extremely minor offense, but it boils down to this question. Do you really think it is right for the government to force YOU to perform an action against your moral beliefs? Please try to give me an answer beyond it's the law.
If I was homosexual, and saw a bakery named 'Sweet Cakes', I would naturally assume someone from the LGBT community owned it.
Can't quite call it "participating in the ceremony."
I think a more substantial question is posed for a wedding photographer, who must indeed avidly participate in the ceremony.
But even then, the issue for a Christian is not a question of American 1st amendment rights, but a question of the Christian mission. The real question for a Christian is: If he is invited to engage with non-Christians...is he even permitted to say no? What is the argument that he is not obligated by the Great Commission to take that opportunity?
As far as the wedding photographer goes a Christain photographer has a very honest way out of this if they so wish. They tell the client that the thought of attending a same sex marriage makes them very uncomfortable and they cannot guarntee that this disconfort will not affect their work but that they would do their very best. And then also recommend several other good photographers who would not be uncomfortable doing the coverage and let the client decide. Almost everyone whould go to another photographer for their wedding. Unlike the baker or caterer a photographer's ability to do their best is determined partly by their relationship with the client. If the client still hires them they do the best job they can do.
God doesn't celebrate sin. He hates it. That makes it kind easy to figure out the modern situations.
Neither you nor the bakers are god.
If baking and delivering cakes is against your religion, DON'T OPEN A BAKERY.
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