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See this guy says it is consciousness. Well stop the equivocation! Just use the term consciousness w/out mudding the waters with such an ambiguous thing like the 'soul.' Of course consciousness is ambiguous as well but the fact that it exists is at least present. I have never argued against the general idea of consciousness
Well okay. I would have thought it were obvious but there ya go!
I look at it this way. What religious folk call 'the soul' is what secular folk call the individual consciousness.
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But I do ask how do you know consciousness survives the death of the body - where is the evidence?
Why do you ask that? What has that got to do with anything?
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And if there is no evidence why do you believe such a thing?
Oh I see. You think I believe that the individual consciousness survives the death of the body! Nope.
I have no such belief. I have no evidence if that is the case or not. From the perspective of those observing death of the body from this position in the physical universe, it certainly looks like it doesn't but it cannot be ascertained in any absolute way that there are not other universes (such as the astral) and how they might effect such a thing so I personally see little to no reason to formulate beliefs about it one way or the other.
07-24-2015, 02:55 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotagivan
Well okay. I would have thought it were obvious but there ya go!
I look at it this way. What religious folk call 'the soul' is what secular folk call the individual consciousness.
Why do you ask that? What has that got to do with anything?
Oh I see. You think I believe that the individual consciousness survives the death of the body! Nope.
I have no such belief. I have no evidence if that is the case or not. From the perspective of those observing death of the body from this position in the physical universe, it certainly looks like it doesn't but it cannot be ascertained in any absolute way that there are not other universes (such as the astral) and how they might effect such a thing so I personally see little to no reason to formulate beliefs about it one way or the other.
Ok! Understood! I misunderstood you. As far beliefs I would like to think that I form them based on good evidence. So if there is no evidence, as of yet, I feel justified in saying there is no such thing that we should believe in particularly in the face of those that say there is and yet fail to give any kind of evidence for such a belief.
Ok! Understood! I misunderstood you. As far beliefs I would like to think that I form them based on good evidence. So if there is no evidence, as of yet, I feel justified in saying there is no such thing that we should believe in particularly in the face of those that say there is and yet fail to give any kind of evidence for such a belief.
Yes - well the evidence you have for your beliefs are based on the ability to observe the physical and in relation to non physical concepts, there is nothing for you to observe, thus you decide on that basis that you can BELIEVE they don't actually exist because you cannot observe them.
For me, the need to formulate beliefs on such grounds is absent.
For you, it is not.
If someone tells me they have experienced a non physical reality, I see no sane reason to insist they 'show me the evidence' for there actually being a non physical reality. The notion is simply absurd to me to be demanding evidence for something which is non physical. What kind of non physical substance can be regarded as evidence in a physical universe? And since all evidence is normally regarded as physical, such a demand is really demanding the impossible.
See?
By my demanding evidence of non physical reality to be presented into physical reality would be an insane demand to make.
However, and perhaps this is what you are really trying to say. If someone tells me I have to believe that there is a non physical reality - such as the Astral - which can be experienced and that I have to believe that they experience this reality, and believe what they have to tell me about it, then nope - I would not believe them...nor would I feel it necessary to demand evidence from them before I 'believe' them. (because that is an insane/senseless thing to demand)
I have never had anyone tell me I should believe them or their experiences in relation to Astral/alternate universes and consciousness.
Have you?
If not, is your hypothetical person telling you to believe them at all a sane reason not to believe? There is no sane reason to believe or not believe. There is only sane reason to stay away from belief altogether, whatever the belief is, for or against the continuation of individual consciousness surviving the death of the body.
If you think there is something which needs clarifying here, by all means do tell us what religious folk think the 'soul' is.
Are you able to be the one to represent what the religious think the soul is?
Nope.
So the best you can do is present what you as a religious person thinks the 'soul' is, and it is obvious that you do not see 'the soul' as 'the individual consciousness' so, ...the floor is open... but be aware that what you believe as a religious person is not what other religious people necessarily believe.
Therefore, when I said "What religious folk call 'the soul' is what secular folk call the individual consciousness." was OF NECESSITY a generalization in order to help a secular individual connect the dots and acceptable for that. It is not as you liable me as doing...'mis-representing others' because those 'others' are failing to represent themselves adequately enough for the secular to understand them when they use words like 'soul' and are not even altogether in agreement in relation to the word they are using.
where is the evidence of this and how do you know this? Where is this 'thing' you call a 'soul?' How did you discover and study it?
there is a wealth of information, just like on any topic,
a person learns through study and exploration, asking questions, verification through personal experience, and participating in the process
07-24-2015, 07:25 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
there is a wealth of information, just like on any topic,
a person learns through study and exploration, asking questions, verification through personal experience, and participating in the process
Wel I have ask questions of you a few times now - and still nothing.
Nor will you. I tend to move away from such 'souls' while simply observing how they play their game.
Vizio is another who does not like to answer uncomfortable questions but just comes in with belief guns a blazin' Moderator cut: deleted
I mean, lets face it, none of us are going to completely 'not offend' those who have such fundamental belief systems but should that require us to shut the hey up and say nothing, or otherwise sugar-coat our expressions to suit their agenda to the degree that the expression becomes pointless and sterile.
That will not do. The World needs to be heard...and the religious need to learn to listen...'tis what I think anyhoo.
Last edited by june 7th; 07-24-2015 at 07:58 PM..
Reason: Referring to other members as "trolls" is considered at personal attack. Next post will have to be infracted.
That would be to say that the data collector is not the data storage.
But further splitting the hairs by obtuse statements like "The soul's not eternal...The spirit is..." doesn't really say anything particularly revealing.
If you one the difference between the soul and the spirit...They are not the same...
If you one the difference between the soul and the spirit...
They are not the same...
I have heard a few teachers explain the difference and I still don't quite get the difference.
I gave up, so I say 'soul/spirit'.
*shrug*
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And since all evidence is normally regarded as physical, such a demand is really demanding the impossible.
