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Can you find anywhere in the Bible where such a sentiment is expressed? On the contrary, we Christians are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves and to protect the innocent.
I wasn't talking about the bible.
I was talking about how it would be advantageous for conservative Christianity if the human condition never improved, since it would appear to validate the doctrine of Original Sin. A steadily improving human condition could actually be a threat to the concept of Original Sin.
He said to believe in him -- that by doing so we have eternal life.
Ok, I got that...
Quote:
He said that the righteousness of the Pharisees -- by obedience to the Law -- was not good enough. We must have a trust and faith in him as the Messiah.
Yes, but he didn't say disobey those laws!
“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished†(Mt. 5:17-18).
Now you can argue that Paul said that Christians were released from the Mosaic laws but I still don't see anywhere Jesus cuts you folks loose.
Actually, you're trying to "lawyer" me with your argument.
To say that "no one cares" is mostly a figure of speech. People say it all the time even though the statement becomes false even if one person out of 7 billion DOES care.
I think you're shaving just a wee bit too close to the skin there to get something over on the atheists, my friend.
YOU know what I meant. And let's face facts: The vast majority really DON'T care considering most people aren't even Christian, and of those, the vast majority don't even know what's in their Bibles much less able to quote 2nd Century Catholic bishops. Ergo, my statement was more accurate than not even though it wasn't 100% true.
Yes...I did know what you meant Shirina. And I wasn't trying to debate the statement based on some nitpick of the absolute aspect of the literal meaning of "no one". Personally...it gets me tweaked when someone pulls that kinda stuff. I feel my post had much more to offer than that.
I really do mean that the Atheists are very loath to admit how many people on this planet, before and still today, care very much about what ancient texts and leaders had to say and what they wrote. They even adopt fully entrenched attitudes about things based on it.
And I'm not just talking about the really over-the-top stuff like afterlife heaven (or hell) replete with streets paved with gold or mansions full of virgins to get it on with for the rest of eternity. I'm talking about the influence on their attitude about the role of the genders in a relationship, how to dress, how to eat...and mostly how to relate to other people in general.
It bugs some Atheists sooooooo bad that the vast majority of people are religious...they go so far as to delude themselves that it really isn't so, just to soothe their angst. They will cling to any little downturn in religious embrace in any small population segment, and shout from the rooftops, "LOOK! Religion is declining bigtime! It will be all gone in no time at all!" How many threads have you seen on that delusional spew alone, just on this board? All the while they ignore that religion is gaining overall on a global basis.
Do I like it that more people are being lured by religious dogma? No!...not at all. But I'm not gonna delude myself to thinking that most people don't care about ancient theological writings and what the religious leaders of old had to say. They did, they do, and they're going to for a long time. That I would prefer they didn't allow themselves to be suckered like that, won't change it one bit.
Speaking only for yours truly, I am well aware that a lot of people care about what was said by the ancients and that most of those give it credence. But longstanding popularity, conformance to human perceptual quirks and holes, ancientness, vastness, ineffability, and so forth, do not amount to a hill of beans if you want to justify a belief.
This is from 4 years ago. Check it out:
Let me give you an analogy: Regardless of the fact that it is August, and all the scientific meteorological evidence against it...I have most people BELIEVING FOR SURE that it is going to snow 2 feet tomorrow in NY City, USA.
Now...how is the FACT that it isn't going to snow at all, let alone two feet, going to effect travel plans and shovel sales if most people REALLY believe it's going to snow 2 feet anyway?
See what I mean now?
It doesn't matter if Theists are wrong and Atheists are right...or if Atheists are wrong and Theists are right...as respects the effect on the world that 90+% of the people that have ever lived embraced Theism!
That a small minority are NonBelievers doesn't mean squat, even if they were/are totally "right"! The FACT that the vast majority DID/DO believe GUARANTEES what they believe IS going to matter!
Try telling the families of the people that were in the WTC on 9-11-2001 that, "It doesn't matter what the Muslims believe, because the Atheists are absolutely sure they are wrong". And I bet the guy that owns the matzo distributorship during Passover thinks it matters what the Jews believe...regardless of the Atheist determination of their belief lacking accuracy or merit.
Answer this, then you will "get it": What would you rather have as your income this year---The money spent printing and distributing copies of the Bible, copies of the Quran, or copies of Dawkins books?
REALITY: The only things that REALLY matter in this world...is what things matter to people!
And of the elective things that matter to people---That would be Religion and Pornography...1st and 2nd place! 3rd place is probably sports or music. But religion is #1. People won't die for the others...but they will for religion.
Yes...I did know what you meant Shirina. And I wasn't trying to debate the statement based on some nitpick of the absolute aspect of the literal meaning of "no one". Personally...it gets me tweaked when someone pulls that kinda stuff. I feel my post had much more to offer than that.
I really do mean that the Atheists are very loath to admit how many people on this planet, before and still today, care very much about what ancient texts and leaders had to say and what they wrote. They even adopt fully entrenched attitudes about things based on it.
Like I said before, most people don't seem to even know what people from the past wrote -- at least not in THIS country. There are WAY too many people who claim to be Christian and yet completely ignore Jesus and his teachings and instead focus on YHWH the tribal Hebrew war god. Going with the Old Testament gives them the power to judge, accuse, and point fingers. It lets them attack gays, hate on atheists, commit violence against American Muslims, and do everything they can to get richer -- usually by trying to defund any program that helps the poor, sick, and disabled. That's nothing at all similar to what Jesus preached, so apparently an awful lot of Christians, especially those below the Mason-Dixon, really don't care about what their own Messiah has to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
And I'm not just talking about the really over-the-top stuff like afterlife heaven (or hell) replete with streets paved with gold or mansions full of virgins to get it on with for the rest of eternity. I'm talking about the influence on their attitude about the role of the genders in a relationship, how to dress, how to eat...and mostly how to relate to other people in general.
Yes, and this is essentially the crux of atheist contentions against those who are religious. Atheists generally don't care what other people believe as long as it doesn't affect them somehow. Unfortunately, there are a lot of religious busybodies out there who just can't stand the fact that you aren't playing by their rules. And there are a lot of crackpots out there who would be happy to FORCE you to play by their rules. As I said in a different post, just look at the GOP candidates this election -- there are several metric tons worth of fundamentalists, evangelicals, and theocratic fascists vying for office which means we atheists have to stay on our toes to make sure religion stays where it's supposed to stay.
However, beyond an internet forum like this one, a forum that is essentially designed for debate and discussion, atheists say very little about religion. Being an atheist isn't high on our identity list. We tend to be other things first such as, "I'm a manager, I'm a mother, I play 2nd base on our company team, I'm a gardener, I'm a fast driver, I'm an animal activist ..." and somewhere down on the list is, "I'm an atheist." That is unlike big time believers who identify almost immediately that they're Christian.
Thus there just aren't many debates in real life about religion. We're more interested in maintaining acceptable conversation and not delving into contentious territory that might offend or scare the person away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
It bugs some Atheists sooooooo bad that the vast majority of people are religious...they go so far as to delude themselves that it really isn't so, just to soothe their angst.
Well, the Western world is growing more secular all the time. I think the only delusion is how fast it's happening. It's not that fast and IF religion were to ever fizzle out, it would take centuries. But for now, in truth, the only thing I personally care about is fundamentalism. At least THAT kind of religious belief is petering out and is mostly unheard of in Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
All the while they ignore that religion is gaining overall on a global basis.
For the most part, no one really cares if religion is growing in China or South Korea or in Kenya. What really matters is what it's doing in our own nation. Do atheists and secularists get excited when polls indicate a downturn in religious affiliation? Of course, and why shouldn't they? Because we ARE seeing fewer people who are admitting to belonging to a particular religion -- it's somewhere down into the 70th percentile and that's HUGE considering it was once in the 90th percentile.
I don't agree with atheists who think religion is going to simply dry up and blow away in the wind. However, all atheists truly care about is to be treated like a true demographic group, a group who are more likely to vote than many other demographic groups -- and there is always some hope that we can become a force to be reckoned with. Historically speaking, all it takes is 14% of the population to change the entire nation. There are already more atheists than Jews, but people care about the Jewish vote but not the atheist vote. Why is that, I wonder?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Do I like it that more people are being lured by religious dogma? No!...not at all. But I'm not gonna delude myself to thinking that most people don't care about ancient theological writings and what the religious leaders of old had to say. They did, they do, and they're going to for a long time. That I would prefer they didn't allow themselves to be suckered like that, won't change it one bit.
Like I said, most of the growth in religious belief is coming from Asian and African nations. The Western world, where we live, is not seeing any phenomenal growth spurt. Despite it all, at least from where I sit, the only real religious ideologies that I pit myself against is fundamentalism and the like ... and atheists do have the numbers to take them on. What's more is that most liberal theists are more in league with atheist values than they are with fundamentalist Christians. Which means we're not exactly alone in this fight.
This is from 4 years ago. Check it out:
Let me give you an analogy: Regardless of the fact that it is August, and all the scientific meteorological evidence against it...I have most people BELIEVING FOR SURE that it is going to snow 2 feet tomorrow in NY City, USA.
Now...how is the FACT that it isn't going to snow at all, let alone two feet, going to effect travel plans and shovel sales if most people REALLY believe it's going to snow 2 feet anyway?
See what I mean now?
It doesn't matter if Theists are wrong and Atheists are right...or if Atheists are wrong and Theists are right...as respects the effect on the world that 90+% of the people that have ever lived embraced Theism!
That a small minority are NonBelievers doesn't mean squat, even if they were/are totally "right"! The FACT that the vast majority DID/DO believe GUARANTEES what they believe IS going to matter!
Try telling the families of the people that were in the WTC on 9-11-2001 that, "It doesn't matter what the Muslims believe, because the Atheists are absolutely sure they are wrong". And I bet the guy that owns the matzo distributorship during Passover thinks it matters what the Jews believe...regardless of the Atheist determination of their belief lacking accuracy or merit.
Answer this, then you will "get it": What would you rather have as your income this year---The money spent printing and distributing copies of the Bible, copies of the Quran, or copies of Dawkins books?
REALITY: The only things that REALLY matter in this world...is what things matter to people!
And of the elective things that matter to people---That would be Religion and Pornography...1st and 2nd place! 3rd place is probably sports or music. But religion is #1. People won't die for the others...but they will for religion.
Even the biggest conflagrations begin with the smallest spark.
Yes...I did know what you meant Shirina. And I wasn't trying to debate the statement based on some nitpick of the absolute aspect of the literal meaning of "no one". Personally...it gets me tweaked when someone pulls that kinda stuff. I feel my post had much more to offer than that.
I really do mean that the Atheists are very loath to admit how many people on this planet, before and still today, care very much about what ancient texts and leaders had to say and what they wrote. They even adopt fully entrenched attitudes about things based on it.
And I'm not just talking about the really over-the-top stuff like afterlife heaven (or hell) replete with streets paved with gold or mansions full of virgins to get it on with for the rest of eternity. I'm talking about the influence on their attitude about the role of the genders in a relationship, how to dress, how to eat...and mostly how to relate to other people in general.
It bugs some Atheists sooooooo bad that the vast majority of people are religious...they go so far as to delude themselves that it really isn't so, just to soothe their angst. They will cling to any little downturn in religious embrace in any small population segment, and shout from the rooftops, "LOOK! Religion is declining bigtime! It will be all gone in no time at all!" How many threads have you seen on that delusional spew alone, just on this board? All the while they ignore that religion is gaining overall on a global basis.
Do I like it that more people are being lured by religious dogma? No!...not at all. But I'm not gonna delude myself to thinking that most people don't care about ancient theological writings and what the religious leaders of old had to say. They did, they do, and they're going to for a long time. That I would prefer they didn't allow themselves to be suckered like that, won't change it one bit.
As a theist, I agree 100% not only that people DO care about ancient writings, but that they SHOULD care. In the western hemisphere the Bible is the most prolific literature ever--by a lot. It has had tremendous influence for both evil and good. From that standpoint alone, it deserves study as a part of our history. It's the old "those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it" motif.
That's the problem with religious fundamentalism. They ignore the history of how scripture has been used to frequently degrade, dominate, disregard, and disrespect some human beings--and continue to practice it with the result of great social ills and continuing divisions within society.
Can there be any further reason to urge atheists to be keen students of the Bible? Someone must be on board to set us Christians straight when we so often get it wrong.
I'm a Christ follower as opposed to a christian. Christians tend to be rule followers. Jesus broke the rules on a regular basis and challenged the bible-believers of His day on virtually all points. He held the value of people as greater than the value of scripture, although He certainly revered it in His own special way (which allowed Him to disregard parts of the rules--some coming supposedly directly from the mouth of God).
But rule followers dominate the christian religion today--and frequently see themselves as superior to non-believers and even non-practioners of the faith. They dominate the airwaves. They dominate many politicians. Basically, they are very scary people.
I want YOU to be a believer. But the more important fact is I want you to become a believer on your own terms with God. Therefore I cannot force you or demand it of you or place a "rulebook" in front of politicians and ask them to make you subject to it. You must find it on your own and in your own good time--or not at all. In either instance the requirement for me is to respect not just your opinion, but you as a person.
I cannot and will not make any demands of you. The only person I can make demands of is myself. That's the problem with too many fundamentalists--they are always making demands of others and infrequently making demands to improve themselves. And that's why Pastor Smith is such a beacon of hope among too many that are millstones about the neck of society.
Like I said before, most people don't seem to even know what people from the past wrote -- at least not in THIS country. There are WAY too many people who claim to be Christian and yet completely ignore Jesus and his teachings and instead focus on YHWH the tribal Hebrew war god. Going with the Old Testament gives them the power to judge, accuse, and point fingers. It lets them attack gays, hate on atheists, commit violence against American Muslims, and do everything they can to get richer -- usually by trying to defund any program that helps the poor, sick, and disabled. That's nothing at all similar to what Jesus preached, so apparently an awful lot of Christians, especially those below the Mason-Dixon, really don't care about what their own Messiah has to say.
Amen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
What's more is that most liberal theists are more in league with atheist values than they are with fundamentalist Christians. Which means we're not exactly alone in this fight.
Amen!!!!!
Preach it, sister!
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