Are Non Believers Out of Line? (America, Christians, verse, belief)

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

And doing so in complete ignorance is also allowed, here . . . but then so is being called on that ignorance.

Medical News Today

Psychosis is a symptom of mental illness rather than the name of a medical condition itself. Broadly speaking, it means a loss of contact with reality, and generally there are two types of psychiatric disorder that produce psychotic symptoms: schizophrenia, and mood disorders such as bipolar disorder.
What is psychosis? What causes psychotic symptoms? - Medical News Today

A man commits several murders based on instructions he believed were given to him by his neighbor's dog. In your informed opinion has this man shown symptoms of psychosis?

A young mother straps on a vest of high explosives, nails and steel ball bearings which she proceeds to detonate in a marketplace full of unsuspecting men, woman and children, based on instructions that she believed were given to her by a Supreme Deity. In your informed opinion has this woman shown symptoms of psychosis?

An elderly woman has a running conversation for many years with an invisible individual she has identified as Jesus Christ. In your informed opinion has this woman shown symptoms of psychosis?

A woman claims to see dragons sitting on top of her roof, and looking in at her through her windows. In your informed opinion has this woman shown symptoms of psychosis?

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

And doing so in complete ignorance is also allowed, here . . . but then so is being called on that ignorance.

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

A man commits several murders based on instructions he believed were given to him by his neighbor's dog. In your informed opinion has this man shown symptoms of psychosis?

Yes!
But I will not play your little game designed around your antipathy for belief in God . . . except to point out that it is not psychotic to believe in God. In your own citation the following clarification is provided:

"Delusions are defined as beliefs that are not supported by the cultural or religious context and there is clear evidence that they are false - nevertheless, they are strong convictions that the patient believes in completely."

It is also necessary to have far more information about the situations you depict to make a solid determination . . . a missing requirement encompassed by your ignorance obviously.

A young mother straps on a vest of high explosives, nails and steel ball bearings which she proceeds to detonate in a marketplace full of unsuspecting men, woman and children, based on instructions that she believed were given to her by a Supreme Deity. In your informed opinion has this woman shown symptoms of psychosis?

This is most likely an irrational act based on indoctrination and conditioning by very real human beings with an agenda . . . NOT a mental illness.

An elderly woman has a running conversation for many years with an invisible individual she has identified as Jesus Christ. In your informed opinion has this woman shown symptoms of psychosis?

No. But more information is needed about the conversations and how they manifest to her.

A woman claims to see dragons sitting on top of her roof, and looking in at her through her windows. In your informed opinion has this woman shown symptoms of psychosis?

Yes. But more information is needed to determine the kind and extent.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

"Delusions are defined as beliefs that are not supported by the cultural or religious context and there is clear evidence that they are false - nevertheless, they are strong convictions that the patient believes in completely."

You would generally expect religious folk to define it that way though, wouldn't you? "Everyone is crazy but me and thee, and thee is manifestly crazy."

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

It is also necessary to have far more information about the situations you depict to make a solid determination . . . a missing requirement encompassed by your ignorance obviously. This is most likely an irrational act based on indoctrination and conditioning by very real human beings with an agenda . . . NOT a mental illness. No. But more information is needed about the conversations and how they manifest to her. Yes. But more information is needed to determine the kind and extent.

Three of the four cases I provided you with were of individuals who were diagnosed by physicians as either schizophrenic or bipolar, both of which are forms of psychosis. The young mother who blew herself up was unable to be interviewed for obvious reasons. The bottom line here however is that all four exhibit a loss of touch with reality. Who is really more out of touch with reality, the young mother who kills herself and dozens of others because she believes that an invisible entity wishes that it be done and who is therefore supported by cultural or religious convictions? Or the woman who sees dragons that no one else sees? My point is that religion is not merely a symptom of psychosis, it is a cause. The end results can be the same.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

My point is that religion is not merely a symptom of psychosis, it is a cause. The end results can be the same.

My views are as follows;

1. All humans are infected with an existential dilemma embedded in the DNA/RNA.


2. Humans has evolved different way of easing the existential dilemma via delusions, theism, religions, secular approaches or are merely indifferent to it.


3. The majority are naturally driven to adopt various delusions to soothe the angst manifested from the unavoidable existential dilemma.
Delusion: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact:
Delusion | Define Delusion at Dictionary.com
The greatest delusion related to the existential dilemma is that of a God.

Because the existential dilemma is inherent in all humans and the majority are driven to the delusion of God, it is a normative [normal] by majority consensus and thus is NOT considered a psychosis.


4. Psychosis refers to an abnormal condition of the mind described as involving a "loss of contact with reality" condition of the mind described as involving a "loss of contact with reality". -wiki

A person who suffers from delusion due to abnormal wirings in the brain may or may not adopt the delusion in the false belief of the existence of God. A person can be deluded in the existence of other beings devil, satan, ghosts, invisible friends, etc.


5. Those who opt toward religions has a choice of
..I. delusional [theistic] religions (Abrahamic, Hinduism, etc.) or
..II. non-delusional [non-theistic] religions (e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, others)

Thus religion is not a cause of psychosis.
The cause of psychosis is due to bad wiring in the brain in contrast and relative to the majority.

[old_cold]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Yes!
But I will not play your little game designed around your antipathy for belief in God . . . except to point out that it is not psychotic to believe in God. In your own citation the following clarification is provided:

"Delusions are defined as beliefs that are not supported by the cultural or religious context and there is clear evidence that they are false - nevertheless, they are strong convictions that the patient believes in completely."
.

Ah yes. The exception to the standard that wouldn't be allowed for any other reason.
That is not the definition you will find everywhere, BTW.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

You would generally expect religious folk to define it that way though, wouldn't you? "Everyone is crazy but me and thee, and thee is manifestly crazy."

Mental illness can be compartmentalized such that a person is generally functional but has difficulties in certain contexts. My stepson has ADHD and OCD and functions very well so long as he doesn't have to do academic work when the stars are not perfectly aligned. My wife had generalized anxiety disorder and functions perfectly except for insomnia and some triggers around certain issues.

And religious people function perfectly well except when they have to use reason that leads to beliefs contrary to dogma. Even when they discard reason in favor of dogma because they have been thusly conditioned, theists may function fine from the point of view of an unbeliever, until they feel compelled to proselytize, give unwanted advice, or demand special privileges such as unearned deference and respect and exemptions from civil obligations such as paying taxes, for their dogma and the practices surrounding it.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

Think of all the people living in the middle ages who were terrified to go out at night because they believed that devils and demons roamed the nighttime darkness. During the various plagues I think it is fair to say that those who did not die were completely insane by our standards. Think of the thousands of women and little girls that were tortured to death during the European witch trials during the 15th to 18th centuries. Between 50,000 and 100,000 women were killed. Whole areas were nearly denuded of women. This was a result of taking religious psychosis to it's logical conclusion.

Certainly plenty of modern religious people are reasonably stable and quite high functioning. But the seeds of madness are unavoidably planted within in the disconnect from reality. All that needs occur is for that disconnect to be followed to it's conclusion. Fundamentalists are well along that path. Consider how far along the path the Westboro Baptist Church group is. Then consider the Heaven's Gate group. They took Christian teachings to a whole new level of psychosis. How far down the path of psychotic delusion a believer chooses to wander depends on how thoroughly indoctrinated they allow themselves to become, and how obsessed they become with their belief. I suspect you have many examples you can think of.

Oh please. The seeds of madness are unavoidably planted within everyone living on this planet just by virtue of the reality within which we find ourselves.

That you retain some skepticism is hopeful. It's when you start hearing them answer back that you really need to worry.

People ALL hear all kinds of things within their own minds. Stop for a while and just listen to all the thoughts going through your mind. Some of them are nonsensical, some are neutral, some have the potential to be helpful, some have the potential to be harmful. We've all got to make choices about what of those thoughts we're going to act on. Now, are you absolutely certain that all of your thoughts originate with you and you alone? If so, I couldn't disagree more. Many of the thoughts we entertain come from sources outside ourselves and, if some people are right, we're all connected and there is also a collective subconscious at work.

Now how, exactly, have you determined that there are not sources outside our conscious awareness that can communicate with us? Please don't tell me you know all the intricacies of how our minds work and receive input, much less the universe and anything beyond what we can observe that we haven't yet discovered that may be influencing us.

I can't speak for all non believers. But I suspect that yes, in varying degrees many secretly do, even though they don't like to admit it.

I would say that anyone who is convinced that they know without a shadow of a doubt that there is no God and that God cannot and does not influence us in any way, are deluding themselves as well.

The best way to answer your question is to pose a question. Do you suppose that it would affect you in ways great and small if you lived in a society where 75-80% of the population believed, to one degree or another, in the existence of the Easter Bunny? At what point would you begin to become fed up with that sort of unreasoning nonsense? Especially when people with beliefs in opposing Easter Bunnies began to fly planes into buildings and commit other psychotic acts of terror? Would you start to think that it was time for the insanity to be exposed and put to rest once and for all?

Equating God to the Easter Bunny is pretty silly, in my book, but I know a lot of people find that a convenient way to be dismissive of the profound questions about our reality that many people think point to the existence of God. Everyone, regardless of belief or non-belief in a God/Gods/Source/Foundation, has the potential within them to act in harmful ways. But if you think that believing in a man who died and rose again has an increased potential to be harmful, by all means, expose how and why. Personally, I think the potential harm comes from other ideas which sometimes go hand in hand with that belief, and I do work to expose those. But I highly doubt that calling people psychotic for believing something simply because you do not, without backing up how it impairs their ability to function, is going to accomplish anything of worth.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Okay. What is the special status they claim to have over the rest of us? Do they use that "special status" to impose on you in some way? How has it negatively affected you?

Originally Posted by Freak

...Believing that ones politics are unquestionable because a divine being told them so...is dangerous....

That is, generally speaking, only applicable to fundamentalist types. I agree, that is dangerous. But that's not what I'm asking you about, and you know that.

Originally Posted by Freak80

They claim to be in direct communication with infallible supernatural beings. That's a delusion. Basing ones politics on delusional beliefs is not healthy, regardless of whether said beliefs are "right wing" or "left wing."

...

You know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is a delusion? How? And how is it unhealthy to base their "politics" on anything if they can also back up their politics with sound reasoning? Generally, what I hear them saying is that they base their "politics" on the concept of community and looking out for the best interests of everyone. This is unhealthy in your view?

The guy who likes to "experience god" during a yoga session is probably harmless, as long as he/she doesn't believe they are somehow getting divine messages.

In other words, you have no examples of how they have imposed on you and you can't point to any way it has negatively affected you.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Pleroo, my thought is EVERYONE'S specially blessed....hahaha
some just don't know it!

It's kinda like having an inheritance, but the lawyers can't find you, so you
aren't aware of it...but you're still SPECIAL!

You're sweet, Miss H.

I know that I have a great deal for which to be grateful, to be sure. And I believe that cultivating a grateful attitude is one way to overcome "impaired functioning" .

[Freak80]

Pleroo, let me make it simple: delusional beliefs are not healthy. Some delusional beliefs may "feel good" but there are always consequences for individuals and society.* It's important for adults to have the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy, fact from fiction.

*examples: we don't have to worry about climate change because God will intervene, I don't have to work because God will take care of my finances, I don't have to wear my seatbelt because God is looking out for me, etc.