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Old 08-02-2015, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Reform Judaism was born at the time of the French Revolution, around 1810-1820
The Temple was destroyed around the year 70
What led up to it?
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Old 08-02-2015, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Long Island
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
What led up to it?
The end of hundreds of year of forced seclusion in walled ghettos, assimilation, and the reaction to the reaction of the Enlightenment.
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Old 08-02-2015, 12:00 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It's quite interesting to read about the Nazoreans, Jerome writing to Augustine about them (he makes it clear that they still followed Jewish Mosaic law (1) the gospel of the Hebrews, the Ebionites and Mandaeans - the various related groups and branches of the Jesus -followers amongst the Jews (to call them Christians is a bit misleading and that implies a Pauline -gentile church, which they were not).

The present day Nazoreans are purely Christian churches that have just appropriated the name and do not represent a continuing line from Judaic Christianity. You may find them still represented in the Sabaeans.

(1) one can wonder whether this was a backsliding into Judaism because of the 'circumcision party' as in Acts or because departure from the Mosaic law was entirely Paul's idea and was not what was taught by Jesus. That of course means that all the Law -bashing in the gospels in untrue and so on and a lot of Christians will refuse to accept what is there for all to see if they only read. I have no doubts whatsoever. Jesus was a practicing Jew, so were his disciples. The abandonment of the Torah -Law was entirely Paul's idea.
Looking at the Torah-law, and comparing it with what is attributed to Jesus, I get the impression such words were said because they were such a foreign concept to most who interpreted that law.

I get the general impression that as far as the beliefs of those people are concerned, they are the favored and others are of secondary import.

Everything about it screams "CULT" in that regard.

Looking after your neighbor was a known concept but related to those cut from the same cloth, not those who were regarded as different.

So Jesus brought in concepts which many found contradicted their own well entrenched beliefs systems about G()D and them and others.

Paul - (from the tribe of Judah?) and a Roman citizen was perhaps used to try and redirect this new thing back toward the old and help formulate the new thing into organised religion.

I don't think the path humanity has taken would have been a better one for the bulk of humans, had Jesus not existed. More likely it would have been worse.
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Old 08-02-2015, 01:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotagivan View Post

Everything about it screams "CULT" in that regard.
concepts which many found contradicted their own well entrenched beliefs systems about G()D and them and others.
to say that Judaism rejected Jesus' teaching is like saying a happily married woman rejected the advances of another man. A person in a deeply satisfying marriage does not look around for someone to be unfaithful with. They don't even consider breaking the sanctity of their marriage vows.

So to wonder why Jews "reject" Christianity is like asking someone who is happily married and in love with their husband...."why aren't you promiscuous?" It is not that Jews are criticizing the quality of whatever wares are on offer, it is that we value being faithful to our marriage.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-02-2015 at 01:25 PM..
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Old 08-02-2015, 05:04 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
to say that Judaism rejected Jesus' teaching is like saying a happily married woman rejected the advances of another man. A person in a deeply satisfying marriage does not look around for someone to be unfaithful with. They don't even consider breaking the sanctity of their marriage vows.


Yes apparently some where not at all impressed with the husband they had and were happy enough to find out there was another - better one for them.

So when a Judaist says they reject Jesus' teaching they are saying 'no thanks - the hubby we have is just fine. We like being different and special and not just 'another women'.

But what Jesus is attributed with saying is that G()D loves everyone equally and has no favorites. Every is G()Ds 'wife' not just 'these people over here'. 'These people over here' are making out that G()D loves them more than others...Jesus says...'nope, you deceive yourselves and are deceived.'

Of course that is not going to go down well with those who believe they are G()Ds chosen bride.



Quote:
So to wonder why Jews "reject" Christianity is like asking someone who is happily married and in love with their husband...."why aren't you promiscuous?" It is not that Jews are criticizing the quality of whatever wares are on offer, it is that we value being faithful to our marriage.
It isn't about Judaists rejecting Christianity but many of them rejecting the concepts about G()D which Jesus spoke of which were not common knowledge.

Jesus wasn't asking anyone to be promiscuous, but to wake up from their fantasies and get real. No one is 'married to G()D' Everyone is a Child of G()D at their very core. We are all G()D, and would be best to treat each other as such.

How can Judaism achieve this? It doesn't even want to. To be seen as equal to other human beings seems beyond their ability to endure, and whats more it appears they need not. That is all well and good when they are securely positioned, but when not - it has usually proved fatal. Where was the good husband while that went on?


Oh he was saying 'you are my special wife for whom I love the most and have proven it by showing that when I allow you to suffer, you do not see that as a bad thing, because I have convinced you that it is your fault wife, when you suffer you have deserved it.'


So I say 'Whatever'. it is entirely your choice what you believe and how you express those beliefs but don't expect everyone to fall in line or accept that your ways are correct or the best or believe what you believe, and don't get all upset and offended when they reflect back at you your own attitudes about those who are not 'kin'.

As far as Jesus was concerned, we are. You don't like that and reject that, so be it. Keep your "we are the true 'wife' of G()D" ideas to yourselves, because such ideas are offensive to normal human beings who understand they are just as lovable as any Judaist in the eye of G()D...at least according to Jesus.

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Old 08-02-2015, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotagivan View Post
Does anyone know if this sect even exists anymore or why it is no longer a legal sect of Judaism?

What was it 'called' when it was a legal sect of Judaism?
The first question to be answered: What the heck is a "Legal sect of Judaism?" What does that even mean?? Within Judaism, Christianity was always a very controversial sect. Whether that constitutes "legal" or "illegal" depends on what you mean and is also a matter of personal opinion.

Christianity began as a sect of Jews who believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the true Messiah. (The man's name was Yeshua, but for familiarity's sake, I'm sticking with Jesus.) Mainstream Judaism quite vehemently disagreed. There is plenty of disagreement about the nature of the Messiah throughout Jewish history, but the more mainstream Jewish groups (Pharisees and Sadducees, etc) were unanimously agreed that Jesus of Nazareth was definitely not the Messiah. They came up with a derogatory term for referring the horribly misguided (in their opinion) Jews who did believe that Jesus was the Messiah: They rather indignantly called them "Christians" which just a Greek-ized way of saying "Messiah believers." Ironic because all Jews in all ages believed that there would be a Messiah at some point, but whatever, right?

The Christians referred to themselves in all sorts of ways, and there were many divisions within Christianity. Everyone would have prefered to call themselves "Church and Kingdom of God" or such. Generally, the subgroups came to be referenced by either their foremost proponent (Marcion, Ebion, Arius, etc) or by the belief set they represented (Docetists, Gnostics, Universalists (Catholics), etc.) All called themselves Christians. Most believed they were right and that all others were wrong.
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:47 PM
 
21,869 posts, read 19,019,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotagivan View Post
To be seen as equal to other human beings seems beyond their ability

Christianity: only Christians can get into heaven, everyone else burns in hell, God only lets Christians in
Islam: only Muslims can get into heaven, everyone else burns in hell, Allah only lets Muslims in
Judaism: everyone can get into heaven, all religions welcome, God welcomes all humans as beloved children of God

what's that you're saying about seeing other humans as equal?

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-02-2015 at 09:21 PM..
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Old 08-02-2015, 11:08 PM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,048,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post

Islam: only Muslims can get into heaven, everyone else burns in hell, Allah only lets Muslims in

wrong again - There will be belivers, and Jews and Christians and Sabeans of pre-Islamic era who were righteous and did good deeds, in the Islamic heaven.
Read Quran 2:62

Last edited by GoCardinals; 08-02-2015 at 11:27 PM..
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Old 08-02-2015, 11:23 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
1,422 posts, read 945,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The first question to be answered: What the heck is a "Legal sect of Judaism?" What does that even mean?? Within Judaism, Christianity was always a very controversial sect. Whether that constitutes "legal" or "illegal" depends on what you mean and is also a matter of personal opinion.
Well it was Hannibal Flavius who I quoted and I do notice that he/she is want to say things on behalf of Judaism and also note that no one corrects him/her about a lot that he/she post regarding things to do with Judaism so it is hard to say what is what, which is why the questions.

Quote:
Christianity began as a sect of Jews who believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the true Messiah. (The man's name was Yeshua, but for familiarity's sake, I'm sticking with Jesus.) Mainstream Judaism quite vehemently disagreed.
That is the impression I get from the various stories about him. Most Judaists did not like him or his message and yes, the 'Messiah complex' is quite strong in Judaism by all accounts.

Quote:
There is plenty of disagreement about the nature of the Messiah throughout Jewish history, but the more mainstream Jewish groups (Pharisees and Sadducees, etc) were unanimously agreed that Jesus of Nazareth was definitely not the Messiah.
The things people believe in!

Quote:
They came up with a derogatory term for referring the horribly misguided (in their opinion) Jews who did believe that Jesus was the Messiah: They rather indignantly called them "Christians" which just a Greek-ized way of saying "Messiah believers." Ironic because all Jews in all ages believed that there would be a Messiah at some point, but whatever, right?

Yep. We ought grow up and sort our own stuff out as a species instead of hoping in fairy tales.

Quote:
The Christians referred to themselves in all sorts of ways, and there were many divisions within Christianity. Everyone would have prefered to call themselves "Church and Kingdom of God" or such. Generally, the subgroups came to be referenced by either their foremost proponent (Marcion, Ebion, Arius, etc) or by the belief set they represented (Docetists, Gnostics, Universalists (Catholics), etc.) All called themselves Christians. Most believed they were right and that all others were wrong.
Haven't yet met a religion that didn't/doesn't.

I don;t even understand why it is alright for Judaists to be anti-Christianity when anyone anti Judaism are considered to being "anti Semitics" as if the attitude is okay as long as you are a Judaist but unacceptable coming from anyone else.

What is with that?

Crazy world...
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Old 08-02-2015, 11:27 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
1,422 posts, read 945,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Christianity: only Christians can get into heaven, everyone else burns in hell, God only lets Christians in
Islam: only Muslims can get into heaven, everyone else burns in hell, Allah only lets Muslims in
Judaism: everyone can get into heaven, all religions welcome, God welcomes all humans as beloved children of God

what's that you're saying about seeing other humans as equal?
What is that you were saying about Judaists would feel as if they were betraying their 'G()D-husband' if they became Christians?

What does it matter then, if everyone 'can get into heaven' all religions welcome etc?
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