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Yes, jealousy is pretty much hard wired. And you can't will it away. We can do a pretty good job of overriding other evolutionary adaptations -- tribalism, territorialism, etc -- even petty jealousy -- but jealousy relating to intimate relationships appears immutable, near as I can tell.
When I thought about heaven or anyone talked about heaven in my days as an evangelical, some sort of radical alteration was generally assumed. But no one thought much about how it would work and suddenly all the normal preoccupation with "free will" went out the window.
The fact is that we would have to be so radically altered that we would not even recognize our own selves. Even if that's not an issue, it begs the question, why aren't we the way we supposedly will be in heaven, in the first place? In fact why isn't THIS heaven? It's kind of a Rube Goldberg arrangement. If heaven is so terrific then it should be here and now, or we should off ourselves at once so that we're in heaven in time for dinner. We certainly shouldn't be "down here" suffering.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. If we are so radically altered when we get to Heaven, what's the point of being here?
It's like the Catch-22 of reincarnation. How can we learn from our mistakes made in this life if we won't remember any of them in the next life?
The same problem arises here, as well. If we're so altered that this life has no meaning or we have no memory of it, then being here is completely pointless.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. If we are so radically altered when we get to Heaven, what's the point of being here?
It's like the Catch-22 of reincarnation. How can we learn from our mistakes made in this life if we won't remember any of them in the next life?
The same problem arises here, as well. If we're so altered that this life has no meaning or we have no memory of it, then being here is completely pointless.
This is a lot like thinking your life here should be the same as it was when you were in the womb. All the physical development and maturation in the womb determined your physical capabilities in this life. All your spiritual development and maturation here will determine your spiritual capabilities in the next one.
This is a lot like thinking your life here should be the same as it was when you were in the womb. All the physical development and maturation in the womb determined your physical capabilities in this life. All your spiritual development and maturation here will determine your spiritual capabilities in the next one.
Development and maturation are a process that is built upon. If the memory of some or all of that process is lost then so is the advancement. You can't possibly learn lessons, forget that the lessons ever happened, and still benefit from them or apply them.
This is a lot like thinking your life here should be the same as it was when you were in the womb. All the physical development and maturation in the womb determined your physical capabilities in this life. All your spiritual development and maturation here will determine your spiritual capabilities in the next one.
maybe. I forgot every lesson in the womb. I forget most of grades 1 - 8 too. Also every presents sets up every future. But I don't think you forget them. You can understand them.
Development and maturation are a process that is built upon. If the memory of some or all of that process is lost then so is the advancement. You can't possibly learn lessons, forget that the lessons ever happened, and still benefit from them or apply them.
actually, at a soul level you do retain progress.
progress is never lost at the soul level
our soul has memory of all our our lifetimes.
in between lifetimes, in between incarnations we have full memory of all our lifetimes.
we review our progress and based on this, it determines our next incarnation, which we choose based on giving us the optimum opportunity to continue our soul development. the kid who states defiantly "I didn't ask to be born".....well, actually you did, at a soul level you asked to be born to this family, to these parents, in this country, in this ethnicity, all of it carefully chosen by you for the sole purpose of creating opportunities for your soul to advance. Free will in any given situation determines whether that advancement is made.
The soul never stops growing, learning, advancing. It may reach a level where it chooses not to incarnate into physical form any more. However it continues to grow and learn in other avenues.
in our current incarnation, our human self has memory only of this lifetime
God describes heaven as a place of unspeakable joy, streets of gold, many mansions the hint of a recognizable heavenly body ( which He modeled for 40 days post resurrection) no pain and as a caveate their is a hint that animals may make the cut inspite of not having souls. God love His creatures ( The lion will lie with the lamb). So when your not versed in scripture when your divorced from fellowship yeah I can see we Christians creating a picture of a perfect heaven could be a pain in the rear to some. I'm perfect? Who would a thunk ? Just looked in the mirror....hummm ....perfection it is!!!!
When I was younger, the concept of heaven sounded like a nifty place. Who wouldn't want to be happy all the time in a lovely place where everything is always perfect? Even though I was an atheist, I could understand why religious people wanted to hold on to that fantasy of such a great place.
As I got older and thought it through more, my feelings changed. I now think heaven sounds like a dreadful place. The main reason is that for heaven to work like it's advertised to work, people could no longer be themselves or have any sort of true free will. For there to be no conflict or unhappiness or imperfections, people would have to be without individuality, desires, ambitions, personality traits, ability to make decisions or affect their path, etc. I just don't see how it could work otherwise. And if I'm not me and my loved ones aren't themselves, then to me there's no point. Oh, and apparently some of my loved ones might not make it there anyway, but I won't even be sad about it, because being sad would ruin that perfection and everlasting happiness thing that heaven's all about.
Of course, that's not why I don't believe in a diety. But when people like to talk about heaven being one of the main perks of believing, they're not making the compelling case that they think they are. Not to me.
This is a lot like thinking your life here should be the same as it was when you were in the womb. All the physical development and maturation in the womb determined your physical capabilities in this life. All your spiritual development and maturation here will determine your spiritual capabilities in the next one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Development and maturation are a process that is built upon. If the memory of some or all of that process is lost then so is the advancement. You can't possibly learn lessons, forget that the lessons ever happened, and still benefit from them or apply them.
The difference is one of kind. Everything in the physical womb involved physical capabilities of a physical body. You are allowing your consciousness and sentience to confuse you. There was no sentience in the physical womb. THAT is what is being developed and matured in this spiritual womb. Everything we experience here contributes to the development and maturation of our Spiritual body comprised entirely of our consciousness. All the attributes and capabilities of our spiritual body have nothing to do with physical characteristics. They are entirely spiritual and comprise what we might summarize as our character. Instead of improperly developed limbs or organs or whatever . . . we can suffer improperly developed character traits that will be unknowable disabilities in the next life.
No-one but you can determine the quality and character of YOUR THOUGHTS and no-one can shape them to anything you do not willing choose yourself. YOUR THOUGHTS and their CHARACTER will determine how and with whom you will spend this and the next life, not anything I or your priest or your pastor or your rabbi or your Imam, or your Shaman or a Monk, or a psychiatrist . . . or anyone else . . . might say or do or believe. Certainly nothing in a BOOK will matter at all.
Let's face it, we really have no idea what the next life will be like . . . just as an unborn child would have no clue what this life will be like (if it were aware). All the evidence available to ME suggests that love, especially agape . . . (but not necessarily exclusively) is the key character trait we are to develop. All the ridiculous concern over "RIGHT" beliefs is the result of human perversion and ignorance, IMO. YMMV.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 08-15-2015 at 03:51 PM..
actually, at a soul level you do retain progress.
progress is never lost at the soul level
our soul has memory of all our our lifetimes.
in between lifetimes, in between incarnations we have full memory of all our lifetimes.
we review our progress and based on this, it determines our next incarnation, which we choose based on giving us the optimum opportunity to continue our soul development. the kid who states defiantly "I didn't ask to be born".....well, actually you did, at a soul level you asked to be born to this family, to these parents, in this country, in this ethnicity, all of it carefully chosen by you for the sole purpose of creating opportunities for your soul to advance. Free will in any given situation determines whether that advancement is made.
The soul never stops growing, learning, advancing. It may reach a level where it chooses not to incarnate into physical form any more. However it continues to grow and learn in other avenues.
in our current incarnation, our human self has memory only of this lifetime
All of which is a very convenient, contrived, and baseless explanation for an obvious logical problem in the proposed system. It is simply working your way backwards from a conclusion and inventing explanations.
You have in this relatively short post claimed:
1) There is something called a "soul"
2) There is something called a "soul level"
3) There is a very specific system of how reincarnation and reincarnative progress works
You have substantiated none of these things. They are simply asserted. That numbers of other people believe / have written about these things does not substantiate them. None of it is observable.
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