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Many who have left the WT, have hard copies of originals. I refer to the WT quote I made above, where it lays a responsibility on persons to speak up and warn people that they are in a false religion. I would think you have no qualms about doing that Alice, to a Catholic or a Protestant. They can make the same claim about what the WTBTS writes about them...but thats different isn't it...when you have the truth?
Having been a JW I always check sources now... I didnt as a JW, much to my regret, because I trusted the Governing Body, that they were honest, humble, and had my personal interests at heart. How wrong I was.
Golly, 1908, 1903? Really? It would never occur to me to try to prove an established religion wrong by information written by some of its earliest advocates over 100 years ago!
the rest of us have to do the same thing. Only our writings are circa AD70+/-, so welcome to the club. Consider yourself lucky.
RIngwielder, I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, I do feel that you should warn those that you feel are in a false religion. But evidently I do feel that I have the truth, or I wouldnt be a part of it. If you feel that I have been brainwashed somehow, alright. I will consider myself warned.
Needless to say, I feel that there is no where else to turn. Nowhere in the world is there another group of people that is united in its purpose to preach the good news of God's Kingdom and give hope to peoples of every nationality. I am united to all of my brothers by love. And I'm happy.
the rest of us have to do the same thing. Only our writings are circa AD70+/-, so welcome to the club. Consider yourself lucky.
Notice I said 'established religion'. We actually feel that our 'earliest writings' would be the bible. Which is what I will always refer to in answering questions.
Please do not say this again. I understand this is how you feel but it's very demeaning to those of us who are independant thinkers. Is it absolutely impossible that we truly agree with what we are hearing? I encourage my bible studies to think for themselves ABOVE ALL ELSE. If it appears that they are blindly following anything, I advise them to research it themselves.
Of course research it...with the Societys publications. And the Societys present views are infallible. You try questioning them.
For instance, the 'generation' prophecy...has now been changed again in this Februarys Watchtower. I remember the Watchtower saying that Armageddon would definitely be here before the end of the 20th century. The generation that saw 1914 would witness the end. At first it was just adults with understanding that were part of the 'generation'. Then as time moved it was children...then babies... finally they had 'new light'. For some 50 years Jehovah had allowed His channel to believe an error, a central scripture we used at the doors to show the imminence of Armageddon. Then in 1995, when it was becoming untenable, the 'new light' changed it to a very fudged unsatisfactory explanation that never quite made sense to me anyway. No apology for all those who had rested their hopes on this central feature of the last days prophecy. No, we were told that WE had been overzealous, over eager in looking to specific times. The Gov Body blamed the brothers. Such arrogance. My elder friend used to give a full public talk (45 mins) devoted to that scripture alone. Thats how insignificant it was to the Society.
So, it doesnt matter if I didnt quite get that meaning of the 'generation' in 1995 because 12 years later, its changed again! And this 'new light' is what the JWs believed back in 1927! and this time we can see the reason for the change.
The Society have always said that the sealing of the number of 144,000 occurred in 1935. That essentially meant, that but for a few individuals who would replace other anointed who fell away, the 144,000 were complete. But the Gov body is made up of anointed brothers. And most of the Governing Body got to be in their 90's and still no new system. So they recently appointed further members who were in their 50's, not even born in 1935.
They had to get rid of that year, which they did quietly in a questions from readers article in the back of a WT last year. So now they are saying that the 'generation' which will see Armageddon is the anointed. There will still be some left when Armageddon begins.
That nicely makes Armageddon anytime, rather than imminent. Only 1914 lies as a problem. If they can get rid of that date, the last days can stretch out or begin at some other time they designate. They did want to change it to 1957 at one time, (when the first space ship went up), but they couldnt get a two thirds majority vote on it in the Gov Body.
These are beliefs that you cannot question, and yet from 1927 till now, that belief was wrong! There are people who could not agree to that belief in all sincerity and are now disfellowshipped, and suffering, because they questioned it! It is not a Theocracy, it is a Dictatorship.
Alice, I am sorry if I have offended you. My ex-wife (still a JW) asked me what I had to put in its place, a question I have asked many times when I was a JW. I have nothing to put in its place. I dont know what is truth. Maybe there isnt one, from the Bible, I dont think I will know in my lifetime. But if its wrong, if with all my heart, I cant accept it as truth anymore, should I stay with it, just to hedge my bets as it were?
I have read and seen many, many Christian denominations extolling the virtues of their faith, their belief that it is the truth. Contrary to what the average JW believes, these people are extremely knowledgeable about the Bible, ancient languages etc. They can all make a seemingly good case for their brand of truth from the Bible. They are sincere and they study hard. I have come to see that all of them, JWs included, can manipulate the Bible to fit in with their beliefs.
My conclusion...if God wanted us to have a single true message direct from him, he did not do a good job with the Bible. The fact that people can interpret it 1000's of ways and all profess sincerely to have the truth, says a lot about the author, not them.
However, I will say to you, Alice, like I have to my JW daughter, who I love dearly, it is your choice. If you are happy in it and you have a good life, thats great, but if it ever becomes a burden to you, from the standpoint of, you are never good enough or you are never doing enough, then I would want to share with you what I know to be the truth, that the WTBTS do not possess ultimate truth.
I wont debate you again Alice. I respect your position and wish you well in your life. Apologies again if I have upset you in any way.
For those of you who think we send pretty women to the door to entice you, well that couldnt be farther from the truth, you see we dont even allow our members to date worldly people. No faithful witness would think twice about dating a worldly person. The society teaches us to avoid most worldly fellowship.
For those of you who think we send pretty women to the door to entice you, well that couldnt be farther from the truth, you see we dont even allow our members to date worldly people. No faithful witness would think twice about dating a worldly person. The society teaches us to avoid most worldly fellowship.
For those of you who think we send pretty women to the door to entice you, well that couldnt be farther from the truth, you see we dont even allow our members to date worldly people. No faithful witness would think twice about dating a worldly person. The society teaches us to avoid most worldly fellowship.
lovethetruth, while I know what you mean by 'the society teaches', it is best not to use that terminology here as it seems to connote (to those reading your posts) that you are not putting emphasis on the scriptures. It is actually the scriptures that teach us not to 'yoke ourselves w/ unbelievers'. The society is simply Jehovah's legal representative on earth that allows the teaching work to stay organized and productive.
Of course research it...with the Societys publications. And the Societys present views are infallible. You try questioning them.
For instance, the 'generation' prophecy...has now been changed again in this Februarys Watchtower. I remember the Watchtower saying that Armageddon would definitely be here before the end of the 20th century. The generation that saw 1914 would witness the end. At first it was just adults with understanding that were part of the 'generation'. Then as time moved it was children...then babies... finally they had 'new light'. For some 50 years Jehovah had allowed His channel to believe an error, a central scripture we used at the doors to show the imminence of Armageddon. Then in 1995, when it was becoming untenable, the 'new light' changed it to a very fudged unsatisfactory explanation that never quite made sense to me anyway. No apology for all those who had rested their hopes on this central feature of the last days prophecy. No, we were told that WE had been overzealous, over eager in looking to specific times. The Gov Body blamed the brothers. Such arrogance. My elder friend used to give a full public talk (45 mins) devoted to that scripture alone. Thats how insignificant it was to the Society.
So, it doesnt matter if I didnt quite get that meaning of the 'generation' in 1995 because 12 years later, its changed again! And this 'new light' is what the JWs believed back in 1927! and this time we can see the reason for the change.
The Society have always said that the sealing of the number of 144,000 occurred in 1935. That essentially meant, that but for a few individuals who would replace other anointed who fell away, the 144,000 were complete. But the Gov body is made up of anointed brothers. And most of the Governing Body got to be in their 90's and still no new system. So they recently appointed further members who were in their 50's, not even born in 1935.
They had to get rid of that year, which they did quietly in a questions from readers article in the back of a WT last year. So now they are saying that the 'generation' which will see Armageddon is the anointed. There will still be some left when Armageddon begins.
That nicely makes Armageddon anytime, rather than imminent. Only 1914 lies as a problem. If they can get rid of that date, the last days can stretch out or begin at some other time they designate. They did want to change it to 1957 at one time, (when the first space ship went up), but they couldnt get a two thirds majority vote on it in the Gov Body.
These are beliefs that you cannot question, and yet from 1927 till now, that belief was wrong! There are people who could not agree to that belief in all sincerity and are now disfellowshipped, and suffering, because they questioned it! It is not a Theocracy, it is a Dictatorship.
I'm sorry but you misunderstood me. I never said I encourage my student to research it with the society's publications. That would completely negate the entire idea if they were having doubts about whether we have the truth, wouldnt it? I encourage them to research it at their local library, actually. And I also have access to encyclopedias, religious and otherwise, that I offer to lend them.
I am aware of the 'generation prophecy'. The changes in our understanding of this prophecy only serve to strenghten my faith, actually. We truly do believe that certain things will become more apparent to us over time, as the scriptures state quite clearly. There have been a few changes like this over the years, as you are aware. And yet, once we have determined that we were wrong, we NEVER go back to the old way of doing things. I prefer this tenfold to a religion that accepts practices that blatantly disregard the teachings of Christ. I find it remarkable and brave.
Since you are beginning to state your opinion about the Watchtower as fact, I would say we haven't much more to say to each other.
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