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What is personally experienced by anyone is true for them, regardless what anyone else thinks about it. Expressing those personal truths is neither lying nor dishonest.
I agree 100%.
Thankfully, in real life, I'm not running into people saying, "Oh yeah? Well prove it!! Prove God exists! Prove you've felt his presence!" They'd be VERY disappointed when they learn I have zero interest in trying to proving anything to them. It is my truth. If someone doesn't believe it.... whatever. I'm sure they can find someone else to interrogate.
To be fair, it's not always easy to tell when a believer is making a statement of personal faith vs a factual claim. I see an awful lot of (what look like) factual claims from the fundamentalist Christians, liberal Christians, and New Agers. If they mean to be making statements of personal faith and not factual claims, they should explicitly say so (in my opinion).
ATTENTION everyone. Freak has just posted the rules for expressing your views in these fora. I assume he has been appointed as a Moderator.
ATTENTION everyone. Freak has just posted the rules for expressing your views in these fora. I assume he has been appointed as a Moderator.
I don't think he did any such thing.
I agree with him in fact that what are supposedly believer's personal beliefs are quite often stated as if they were settled facts.
In fact I think they see them as settled fact because they often project like crazy, claiming we unbelievers are making knowledge claims when in fact we are only making belief claims.
To be fair, it's not always easy to tell when a believer is making a statement of personal faith vs a factual claim. I see an awful lot of (what look like) factual claims from the fundamentalist Christians, liberal Christians, and New Agers. If they mean to be making statements of personal faith and not factual claims, they should explicitly say so (in my opinion).
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
ATTENTION everyone. Freak has just posted the rules for expressing your views in these fora. I assume he has been appointed as a Moderator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I don't think he did any such thing.
I agree with him in fact that what are supposedly believer's personal beliefs are quite often stated as if they were settled facts.
In fact I think they see them as settled fact because they often project like crazy, claiming we unbelievers are making knowledge claims when in fact we are only making belief claims.
Now, now, mordant . . . everyone who expresses their beliefs about the world do so that way. The only ones who need to cite sources are those publishing in academic journals. Even there the use of beliefs is not all that unusual when hypothesizing from the results.
Disclaimer: Because Freak gets confused let it be known that the opinion expressed in this post is the personal opinion of the author and is a reflection of the author's cosmic journey. Any claims made may or may not be fact. The author takes no responsibility if Freak doesn't guess correctly.
To be fair, it's not always easy to tell when a believer is making a statement of personal faith vs a factual claim. I see an awful lot of (what look like) factual claims from the fundamentalist Christians, liberal Christians, and New Agers. If they mean to be making statements of personal faith and not factual claims, they should explicitly say so (in my opinion).
That's a fair request but I also think it safe to assume a poster is expressing his/her beliefs/thinking and not assume they are stating fact.
I try to make sure I couch my belief-statements as such by using words such as "I feel" or "I think that" or "I have a hunch that" etc.
But I'm a professional writer and think precision in language matters. I also understand most posters are not and adjust my filters accordingly.
I try to make sure I couch my belief-statements as such by using words such as "I feel" or "I think that" or "I have a hunch that" etc.
But I'm a professional writer and think precision in language matters. I also understand most posters are not and adjust my filters accordingly.
Same here. As writers, we're both familiar with (and experienced at) writing down to the level of the readership, and I've noticed that you do the same thing I do - sprinkle in enough drips and droplets of "I believe that..." and "in my belief system..." that someone would have to be pretty obtuse not to glean that we're expressing a belief, not making a declarative statement. But you can only do so much. Some people are always going to be so feverishly and fervently on the hunt for some key word to pounce on that all the disclaimers in the world are just going to bounce off their heads. (Note - I'm not talking about Freak. Thought I'd better mention that since several posters have referenced him; want to make it clear that I'm not taking a shot at him in any way. I like the guy; I got no dog in whatever fight is goin' on there.)
You do understand the difference between someone stating something as a factual claim, and someone simply saying "I believe...", don't you? Or do you? I'm not always sure.
I know a lot of people on forums like this like to espouse nonsense as true and then retreat behind "Oh it is just what I believe" when confronted on it at any level, yes. So not only am I aware of the difference, I am aware of how people manipulate that difference to dodge, retreat, and cop out.
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Originally Posted by DewDropInn
OK. That's your prerogative. Is everyone else supposed to to the same? If it is .... rotsa ruck trying to make that happen.
It is nothing to do with me or anyone else. It is a fact independent of me. And the fact is that there is nothing honest at all about claiming things to be true that you have no basis whatsoever to show is true. And it is especially dishonest and crass to go around acting like things are true and then retreat and hide behind the rhetoric of "Oh it is only my opinion/belief" when someone questions it. Alas an MO of the very group of people you would tell us are honest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Thankfully, in real life, I'm not running into people saying, "Oh yeah? Well prove it!! Prove God exists! Prove you've felt his presence!" They'd be VERY disappointed when they learn I have zero interest in trying to proving anything to them.
You would end up very disappointed when you learn that few of them actually care. What you believe is your own business and it bothers nor interests me not a jot in general.
But the fact is these "personal" beliefs are anything but. A whole host of believers can not be happy until you believe it too. They come onto forums like this and make truth claims and then duck, dodge, retreat and cop out when confronted on them. And in the meat space world off the forum they go into our halls of power, education and science, and USE those beliefs to influence policy and law and curriculum.
And it very much IS incumbent upon them then to prove their god exists. We are not following them home demanding they prove these things. They are coming into OUR public sphere and making those claims, and I do little more than demand they at least make the attempt to substantiate their nonsense when they do so.
But the fact is these "personal" beliefs are anything but. A whole host of believers can not be happy until you believe it too. They come onto forums like this and make truth claims and then duck, dodge, retreat and cop out when confronted on them. And in the meat space world off the forum they go into our halls of power, education and science, and USE those beliefs to influence policy and law and curriculum.
And it very much IS incumbent upon them then to prove their god exists. We are not following them home demanding they prove these things. They are coming into OUR public sphere and making those claims, and I do little more than demand they at least make the attempt to substantiate their nonsense when they do so.
Are you saying that city-data's religion and spirituality forums are your public sphere? Since when do atheists consider religious forums their property? And in what way are the non-fundamentalist personal beliefs of others threatening to you? What, for instance, have Dew or Mystic indicated about how they may be influencing education, science or politics that alarms you?
You would end up very disappointed when you learn that few of them actually care.
Incorrect. Sorry, but you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about me. I'm fully aware most people could give a rat's behind about what someone else believes, unless or until those beliefs interfere with how they choose to live.
If you want me to prove or justify my beliefs to you....you're in for a long, long wait which will end in your being very frustrated.
I believe beliefs are deeply personal. I'm not the person saying, "Do you know where you'll spend eternity?" and recruiting converts. My pagan friends would stop inviting me to their parties.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 09-20-2015 at 10:10 AM..
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