Why doesn't god offer his "gift" of faith to unbelievers? (salvation, souls)
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When jesus died on the cross supposedly for all our sins, and said "it is finished", did his death not atone for the "sin" unbelief? Did his work on the cross only offer "potential" salvation to us rather than actual salvation, by requiring us to be responsible for our own salvation by having to do some thing (believe) in order to obtain it? Not to mention that this one thing (belief) which is necessary for salvation, is impossible for the "natural man" to do on his own (without the holy spirit)?
Why doesn’t god offer his “gift” of faith (and ultimately salvation) to unbelievers? Contrary to the rationalizations of many Christians who try to claim that somehow unbelievers refuse or reject this “gift”, I don’t know of a single atheist (myself included) who has done this (refused it). Most, if not all of us, would gladly accept this “gift” if only it were offered to us (obviously in a way we can understand...see below**).
That being said, unbelievers cannot just “decide” or “choose” to believe based on their own "will". Can you just "decide to believe" in Vishnu or Zeus? I mean really believe in your heart ("for even the demons believe")? For me, belief isn't something that I can just turn on and off based on a decision to just "do it." Belief is the resulting outcome or conclusion based on personal experiences and knowledge which lead us to believe a certain way. I have just not had any personal experiences which lead me to the belief that god exists. Therefore, I have no belief in god, and I can't just "decide" to believe, no matter how much I would like to.
**How can “fallen man” even be expected to believe in God without having the Holy Spirit to guide us to understanding? Apart from the Holy Spirit, man has no free will to believe the gospel. His will is in bondage to the corruption of nature. How can a person, dead in sin, blind, deaf to the things of God, desire Christ apart from a supernatural work of the Spirit? An unregenerate man who does not have the Holy Spirit, cannot understand spiritual things, for they are foolishness to him.
Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
1 Cor 2:14 ”But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
To claim we can have faith of our own will/nature is to make faith into a work. This would make it a salvation of “merit” and contrary to the Christian message.
Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves but the gift of God.
It is not by the will of man (John 1:13) that one gets the new birth.
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
According to the Bible : "This is the command of God, to believe in his Son." God commands it. This does not mean we are willing. Willingness comes from grace, not nature. If belief were possible of our own accord/choice/will, then wouldn’t this make the Holy Spirit completely unnecessary in the preaching of the Gospel to unbelievers? To say God's free gift does not include His Holy Spirit to grant understanding and moral ability is to think way too highly of those who are dead in sin.
No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3)
12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost
Grace is much more than simply God's unmerited favor. It also includes the work of the Holy Spirit prior to salvation in opening blind eyes to see the truth, opening deaf ears and turning our heart of stone to a heart of flesh (according to Scripture). God does a work of grace in men's hearts, which are naturally hostile to the gospel. Cessation of hostility is not done through mere persuasion but because the Holy Spirit illumines and quickens the heart of those he came to save.
"It does not depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy" (Rom 9:16)
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
I thought it was going to be a reasonably reasonable thread, but it turned out to be a bible-quoting one instead which turned me right off. True believers just cannot hide behind a veil of unbelief can they, their true feelings always seem to sneak out...
As a former agnostic I see attacks on the bible as a kind of pointless mental exercise. If the whole of God only existed through man's interpretation in the Bible then we would really have no hope.
If we are only to focus on Jesus and his gift of faith, as reported by his followers, then we have to consider that they were interpreting an act. Their interpretation was limited to the world they knew, which is a limited interpretation at best. The idea of his death was to say that no one can pull God from your life if you want him/her/it in it. Jesus did not claim to be God. He did not claim to be the Holy Spirit either. Keep that in mind.
What becomes important is whether a relationship with a God and/or Holy Spirit is valuable. This depends on how you view God. If you limit your view to the bible then perhaps you can find reasons to reject God. People can be happy without God in their lives. But what is a life with God and why would one want to pursue such a thing?
I am no prophet or apostle. I am a believer. To me, God is Joy. God is every good thing you ever enjoyed or imagined- no more, no less. God is that gift of joy in our lives. God is that spirit that makes you happy to be alive. That's how I name my God. I don't have to understand God and such an idea is one that modern science can't fathom. But science is about control. When we fully understand anything we can control it. That science can't understand God is to say that if they can't understand it/control it then they want no part of it. But wouldn't it stand to reason that a being that can create what we discover would be more complex than we could ever control or understand?
Many people have trouble accepting God because they want to be the center of their own lives. Such a desire is an embarassing bit of childishness. It reminds me of wealthy people who show off their wealth, expect perfection from everyone, claim any perfect work they paid for as their own but have no substance to their lives and offer nothing meaningful to anything. Which is to say, why brag about a gift?
So God is joy and seeing joy in everything. But what's more, knowing God is channeling God through your own efforts. It's becomming more than what you are by letting something more powerful than you pull/push you forward.
and why would one allow God to run through their veins?
To make their own and other's world, this world we share, a much better place. Not so that everyone will recognize how great we are, but so that we can peacefully enjoy it together.
You can argue about faith and prove or disprove what any man says. My hope is that you not focus on 'proof' and focus on seeking joy. Real joy. Not some kind of fake joy espoused by a religious leader, not some empty joy provided by the meager comforts of science, but things that make you happy. When you find that, perhaps you might want to share it. Perhaps you might want to be with people who are trying to reach that same place. Church isn't a bad place to start.
As a former agnostic I see attacks on the bible as a kind of pointless mental exercise. If the whole of God only existed through man's interpretation in the Bible then we would really have no hope.
If we are only to focus on Jesus and his gift of faith, as reported by his followers, then we have to consider that they were interpreting an act. Their interpretation was limited to the world they knew, which is a limited interpretation at best. The idea of his death was to say that no one can pull God from your life if you want him/her/it in it. Jesus did not claim to be God. He did not claim to be the Holy Spirit either. Keep that in mind.
What becomes important is whether a relationship with a God and/or Holy Spirit is valuable. This depends on how you view God. If you limit your view to the bible then perhaps you can find reasons to reject God. People can be happy without God in their lives. But what is a life with God and why would one want to pursue such a thing?
I am no prophet or apostle. I am a believer. To me, God is Joy. God is every good thing you ever enjoyed or imagined- no more, no less. God is that gift of joy in our lives. God is that spirit that makes you happy to be alive. That's how I name my God. I don't have to understand God and such an idea is one that modern science can't fathom. But science is about control. When we fully understand anything we can control it. That science can't understand God is to say that if they can't understand it/control it then they want no part of it. But wouldn't it stand to reason that a being that can create what we discover would be more complex than we could ever control or understand?
Many people have trouble accepting God because they want to be the center of their own lives. Such a desire is an embarassing bit of childishness. It reminds me of wealthy people who show off their wealth, expect perfection from everyone, claim any perfect work they paid for as their own but have no substance to their lives and offer nothing meaningful to anything. Which is to say, why brag about a gift?
So God is joy and seeing joy in everything. But what's more, knowing God is channeling God through your own efforts. It's becomming more than what you are by letting something more powerful than you pull/push you forward.
and why would one allow God to run through their veins?
To make their own and other's world, this world we share, a much better place. Not so that everyone will recognize how great we are, but so that we can peacefully enjoy it together.
You can argue about faith and prove or disprove what any man says. My hope is that you not focus on 'proof' and focus on seeking joy. Real joy. Not some kind of fake joy espoused by a religious leader, not some empty joy provided by the meager comforts of science, but things that make you happy. When you find that, perhaps you might want to share it. Perhaps you might want to be with people who are trying to reach that same place. Church isn't a bad place to start.
Hmm, went to church the first 40 years or so of my life, and that was one of the things that always made me feel so alone when I was there--the preacher talking about "joy". Have no idea what that word means. Apparently it's some sort of emotion of overwhelming happiness, but if you've never felt that emotion, the word is meaningless no matter how much people say it.
Easy answer... Jesus didn't die on the cross to save anyone. Can't wait until that error is corrected in the minds, hearts and souls of all of our Heavenly Father's children.
What is our Heavenly Father's message? Go to your Father... open up your soul and receive His Divine Love, which is His very essence. It is His Divine Love that gives us salvation and immortality... it's as simple and uncomplicated as that and all it requires is your willingness to want it. Ask and it shall be given unto you.
Faith as a gift? Faith is about believing things that are false. It's a tool to control. Living under tyranny of coercive lies is a chosen act of religious followers, not me.
Hmm, went to church the first 40 years or so of my life, and that was one of the things that always made me feel so alone when I was there--the preacher talking about "joy". Have no idea what that word means. Apparently it's some sort of emotion of overwhelming happiness, but if you've never felt that emotion, the word is meaningless no matter how much people say it.
If you've never felt a certain emotion I guess it could be difficult to understand. Still it's not like the emotion was invented by a preacher to trick you. I think people feel "joy" whether they're in or not in a religion or theism.
Granted C. S. Lewis used "Joy" to mean something that I'm not sure I would use the mean and maybe that's what your preacher meant which you didn't feel. In Lewis's terminology "Joy" is a kind of longing or yearning for something you know not what. His understanding of it does seem to be intimately linked to a longing for God.
I don't usually use the word "joy" to mean that. To be perfectly honest I'm not as enamored by Lewis as most Christians. I find some ideas he had to be somewhat suspect, vaguely pagan, or even a bit disturbing. Although his idea on "Joy" is not an example of that it's not how I use the word by and large.
To me "joy" is more like a kind of sublime happiness that's not caused simply by "animal" pleasures. (By "animal pleasures" I mean like eating, drinking, mating, physical excitement in general) Like when you're walking in a forest or the mountains and you feel a feeling that's both peaceful and happy. Or when you're spending a good time with loved ones and you feel a sense of "rightness" or contentment that's beyond satisfying simple needs. So it's like a happiness that's meaningful and lingers in the memory. I really think an atheist could experience that. Maybe you've experienced that but you don't call it "joy" because you were raised with the word having a specific theological meaning.
Although I suppose even the "longing for an object which does not exist" which Lewis seems to mean could also be found in an atheist/agnostic in a way. I know some atheistic science fiction, particularly Arthur C. Clarke, seemed to express an almost profound desire or longing for "something." Possibly that "something" would be found in space or the ocean or the human heart, but generally he did not indicate it was a desire for God. (Although he seemed to be open to the idea it was similar, but I think he'd likely say it was superior to it) And you see something like that "longing" in SETI, NASA, dolphin research, etc even among non-theists who work for them.
And maybe this makes absolutely no sense to you at all or maybe it makes perfect sense. Anyway Bon Soir and Zai Jian!
"The anticipation far exceeded the actual experience." (Snoopy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
If you've never felt a certain emotion I guess it could be difficult to understand. Still it's not like the emotion was invented by a preacher to trick you. I think people feel "joy" whether they're in or not in a religion or theism.
Granted C. S. Lewis used "Joy" to mean something that I'm not sure I would use the mean and maybe that's what your preacher meant which you didn't feel. In Lewis's terminology "Joy" is a kind of longing or yearning for something you know not what. His understanding of it does seem to be intimately linked to a longing for God.
I don't usually use the word "joy" to mean that. To be perfectly honest I'm not as enamored by Lewis as most Christians. I find some ideas he had to be somewhat suspect, vaguely pagan, or even a bit disturbing. Although his idea on "Joy" is not an example of that it's not how I use the word by and large.
To me "joy" is more like a kind of sublime happiness that's not caused simply by "animal" pleasures. (By "animal pleasures" I mean like eating, drinking, mating, physical excitement in general) Like when you're walking in a forest or the mountains and you feel a feeling that's both peaceful and happy. Or when you're spending a good time with loved ones and you feel a sense of "rightness" or contentment that's beyond satisfying simple needs. So it's like a happiness that's meaningful and lingers in the memory. I really think an atheist could experience that. Maybe you've experienced that but you don't call it "joy" because you were raised with the word having a specific theological meaning.
Although I suppose even the "longing for an object which does not exist" which Lewis seems to mean could also be found in an atheist/agnostic in a way. I know some atheistic science fiction, particularly Arthur C. Clarke, seemed to express an almost profound desire or longing for "something." Possibly that "something" would be found in space or the ocean or the human heart, but generally he did not indicate it was a desire for God. (Although he seemed to be open to the idea it was similar, but I think he'd likely say it was superior to it) And you see something like that "longing" in SETI, NASA, dolphin research, etc even among non-theists who work for them.
And maybe this makes absolutely no sense to you at all or maybe it makes perfect sense. Anyway Bon Soir and Zai Jian!
Perfect sense. To me this 'need' is something most of us have. I tentatively think that it is an evolved instinct that drives us. Some think that it can be found in wealth, pleasure, acquisitions, hunting or war, discovery or learning. It is doubtful that this satisfies. The feeling is that if one just has this or that, one will be satisfied. For a while. As Baron Richthofen said, the satisfaction (of downing an enemy biplane) lasts maybe a quarter of an hour. Then one needs to go after the next 'kill'.
Is this the same need as takes people into religion? I remember that a questionnaire to a lot of Moonies about why they joined added the afterthough Q "Was looking for something but didn't know what". That apparently was the reason for most of them.
Does religion satisfy that need is a way that no other pursuit can? It would certainly account for its persistence.
And mythunderstood
Quote:
**How can “fallen man” even be expected to believe in God without having the Holy Spirit to guide us to understanding? Apart from the Holy Spirit, man has no free will to believe the gospel. His will is in bondage to the corruption of nature. How can a person, dead in sin, blind, deaf to the things of God, desire Christ apart from a supernatural work of the Spirit? An unregenerate man who does not have the Holy Spirit, cannot understand spiritual things, for they are foolishness to him.
Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
1 Cor 2:14 ”But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
To claim we can have faith of our own will/nature...
If I follow your thought correctly, how can people be expected to find God? They can't do it, only God can. Leaving aside the one - off of Paul who, (according to Luke,who wrote Acts) was actively pushed into Christianity by God, God seems to wait for an approch fromthe human side. Humans cannot get God themselves but, it seems, a willingness to accept God and then God can do the rest. The Paul example would suggest that God, if he wanted to, could convert everyone who didn't believe. He really could, just like that. But He gives us the choice of voluntarily wanting God. That's what the Free Will thing is all about.
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