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I could just as easily say that I believe in god therefore <insert ideology to commit horrible acts here.> However, I'm not saying that is the reasoning for atheism or theism. My point is quite the contrary--that such things as killing do not flow from either belief.
However, I am saying that atheism/theism is part of a word view; world views that cannot always be separated from theism or atheism. For instance, if Stalin or Mao had actually believed in the Christian God as Christians teach, then they probably wouldn't have committed such mass murders, because God teaches us that such acts are wrong. It was atheism that in their mind allowed the door to be opened to ignoring such an essential aspect of morality. Similarly, if the crusaders didn't believe in God, then they probably wouldn't have led an unjust war murdering so many. So let me be very clear--I'm saying that the natural implications of atheism and theism do not necessarily support immoral behavior. I am saying that murder can be justified by people's perceptions of the implications of either atheism or theism.
While I don't think murder itself stems from either belief or dis-belief, I am talking about the justification for it. There are plenty of examples throughout history where people were murdered or killed for religious justifications and it's not necessarily through war. What brutalities people can garner and use from the "world view" of religion cannot be wrought through atheism. I'm sorry, it just can't happen. No one, not even the craziest crazy of them all is going to go around and say "I find justification for murdering this person because a non-existent God didn't say I couldn't." How many negatives in one sentence can we have before we realize that it just doesn't make sense? Atheistic worldviews do not open the door to anything. You say, and I quote, "Murder can be justified by people's perceptions of the implications of either atheism or theism."
But, really, what are the implications of atheism? There are none. There is no god or devil. No heaven or hell. So, I can't honestly say there are "implications" to being an atheist. It's a false argument. Once again, it's much like saying there are implications for not believing in Santa. I mean, the Santa believer might say I won't get presents under my tree, but does the non-Santa believer face implications because of that? Well, absolutely not and it's ridiculous to even think that way. A world view of atheism does not define good or bad. It just simply implies that you don't believe in a deity. There are simply no implications from that... Unless, of course, you want to try and paint the picture that we atheists are all bad people...
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Originally Posted by ainulinale
I'm not saying this. The way I worded the sentence may have been confusing--I did not intend to say that communism is founded on the belief of atheism, but that both atheism and theism can be part of the perceived justification for committing murder.
I'm sorry, I just can't find one example of a person using his/her non-belief in a deity to commit a murder or even find justification for it. It just wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. No one goes around killing in the name of what they don't believe in... That's ridiculous.
Now troop, what if an atheist justifies killing a bunch of people by saying that they don't believe in God so he/she won't be judged and it's not like they will go to hell for it, since in their eyes hell does not exist. Not saying that their non-belief made them do it, but they can justify it by saying that they will never have to pay for it. Because this is their one and only life and if they take their own life after, then they will never be punished.
Mike, your premise doesn't make sense and raises other questions for me.
Are you saying that because someone is atheist that they have no morality?
Why are most murders in jail christian?
What about christians who commit murder/suicide? The act of murder doesn't stop them, does it? What about their judgment?
Now troop, what if an atheist justifies killing a bunch of people by saying that they don't believe in God so he/she won't be judged and it's not like they will go to hell for it, since in their eyes hell does not exist. Not saying that their non-belief made them do it, but they can justify it by saying that they will never have to pay for it. Because this is their one and only life and if they take their own life after, then they will never be punished.
Just thinking...
There is a basic flaw in your premise. The way you put it assumes that one must believe god could punish them if he existed. The atheist doesn't believe in god, basically giving him no thought. This being the case being judged by god or not does not come into the equation. Their motives, good or bad, come from other sources, IMO.
Are you saying that because someone is atheist that they have no morality?
Chiel, I have stated many times that I believe you don't have to be religious or a believer to have morals. I believe that they are passed down more from your parents than anything else.
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Why are most murders in jail christian?
I'd say because the majority of the people in this country are christians. If it was a 50/50 split between believers and non-believers then I think it would be that same way in prisons as well.
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What about christians who commit murder/suicide? The act of murder doesn't stop them, does it? What about their judgment?
I am not bashing atheists. Troop just said that there is no way an atheist can justify a bad deed such as murder to a disbelief, and well as I was reading his post, that popped into my head. Well I would say if a Christian does something like a murder / suicide then he/she would be putting their faith and judgment aside while they are doing it, and really not care about the consequences. Unless in the extreme cases that someone gets tricked into being a suicide bomber and blow up innocent people for "riches" in heaven or whatever it is.
There is a basic flaw in your premise. The way you put it assumes that one must believe god could punish them if he existed. The atheist doesn't believe in god, basically giving him no thought. This being the case being judged by god or not does not come into the equation. Their motives, good or bad, come from other sources, IMO.
Very good point, like I said, it just popped into my head and thought I'd throw it out there.
Now troop, what if an atheist justifies killing a bunch of people by saying that they don't believe in God so he/she won't be judged and it's not like they will go to hell for it, since in their eyes hell does not exist. Not saying that their non-belief made them do it, but they can justify it by saying that they will never have to pay for it. Because this is their one and only life and if they take their own life after, then they will never be punished.
Just thinking...
That's illogical. No one kills a bunch of people because they won't be judged by God. That's not a justification, it's a ramification. People kill other people because they believe they will gain in some way from the deaths. Religious wars are fought because one group believes their God will be pleased in some way by it, they will gain control of a Holy land, they will rid their country of infidels, they have a duty to convert or kill people who don't share their beliefs. Atheists have no holy sites they need to make pilgrimages to, they have no choice but to coexist with people who don't share their belief systems, they have no duty to convert, they have no God that they have to please and so earn a place in heaven. If an atheist kills someone, atheism is not the reason or justification, and not believing in heaven or hell is irrelevant.
All humans are created equal and in the image of God according to the Bible. Man has a will and the ability to make choices and decisions which impact his character and whether he chooses to obey civil law or be disobedient, whether he will be honest or dishonest, whether he will steal or not steal, whether he will be unfaithful in marriage or not be, etc. Even in choosing right, the Bible states that "all of man's righteousness is like a filthy rag" and "fall short of the Glory of God". The most important choice a person can make comes from this realization that God is only happy when we are choosing to live as Christ and have the same mind, character, and outlook on life as Christ and this is only possible when one has invited Christ into his life and heart to live. Even with Christ inside of man, the "old sin nature" is present and can rear his ugly head and influence choices. Truely, to know the truth and to obey the truth is the only way to be free and have peace that passes all understanding..One day at a time!
Now troop, what if an atheist justifies killing a bunch of people by saying that they don't believe in God so he/she won't be judged and it's not like they will go to hell for it, since in their eyes hell does not exist. Not saying that their non-belief made them do it, but they can justify it by saying that they will never have to pay for it. Because this is their one and only life and if they take their own life after, then they will never be punished.
Just thinking...
I'm on a Santa Claus kick as of late so please bear with me
I mean, we could say this about Santa Claus as well. What if someone who doesn't believe in Santa Claus justifies mis-behaving by saying they don't believe in Santa Claus so he/she will not have to worry about coal or presents under the Christmas tree? Since, in their eyes, Santa Claus does not exist. I'm not saying their disbelief in Santa Claus made them do it, but they can justify it by saying that they will never have to pay for it with a bag of coal under the tree, right?
That makes absolutely no logical sense and we can use any particular deity to fill that gap (I just like Santa because he's typically a reward giver but on occassion punishes with coal). It just doesn't make logical sense to say such a thing.
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