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I totally agree with you, but in that one line out of everything else that I said, I thought Alexia was right that being apart of a church does make it easier.
But I take it since you didn't question anything else I said, that you agreed with it?
I don't know of many secular humanitarian organizations that put an emphasis on morals quite like a church would.
Do you know of any? Not meaning to sound mean or anything, just an honest question.
No I don't think there's any parallel that can be drawn between the two. Don't confuse secular with atheistic (and don't take that the wrong way). People can be part of secular organizations (ones that don't peruse under the guise of any particular religion or ideology) and do just as much good as any church organization. I'm failing to see your connection.
On top of that what you're saying in terms of humanitarian organizations that put an emphasis on morals quite like a church would... I fail to see the comparison. Some churches don't have a problem with gay marriage, abortion, death penalty, etc... while others do support it. It seems to me like belonging to a church is only reinforcing that in which you are already a supporter of in the first place. In essence, it seems it's just easier to adhere to preconceived notions you already have about things and they don't necessarily have to be the moral truth.
Although I'm not what you would call a "believer" I have noticed that many people who don't derive their morals from the injunctions of a religion simply don't have any code of ethics at all. That is, there isn't anything about which they say "that's wrong, I'd never do that." They respond to every situation by asking what's in it for them, not wanting to miss out on any possible advantage to themselves.
While I'm not saying that people who are religious necessarily do any better at living within the confines of their ethical system than non-believers, they do at least HAVE a code of conduct that they've personally accepted. That's a good place to start.
And further, there's no way to judge whether any religion helps people behave better or not, since there is no way of knowing what temptations they passed by because of religious scruples. I agree that in an enlightened society where people learned to think about others and examine their consciences, there might be no need for any ethical standards beyond what was encoded in the law. But in a society like ours, where many people act on impulse most of the time, the code of conduct promoted by most religions is better than none at all.
Getting way off track with this one. Morals, ethics and conscience are three totally different things. Trying to tie them into one behavior is like trying to breed a dog, cat and parrot.
Hey GCS, I think you are making too much out of the religion and morals thing. I don't think you have to have religion to have morals. I am saying that I don't know of any humanitarian organizations that put an emphasis on morals as much or more than a religous group. That is why I was asking you if you knew any, because you said that people can get the same result from being in a humanitarian organization than in a religous one.
I don't see what the connection is between morals and say being for / opposed to the topics you brought up: gay marriage, abortion, and the death penalty. I know different religions and people alike have very different ideals and stances on those controversial subjects.
I define morals as trying to do the best that you can do, make the right decisions, trying to take the higher ground, and doing unto others as you would like to be done onto you.
Honestly, I could care less about what someone looks like, what their sexual orientation is, what they beleive or don't beleive. If you are a good person, then you are fine in my book.
Everyone's stances are different on things, I am sure all baptists don't see eye to eye with other baptists, catholics and other catholics, and athiests with other athiests. So just because you are put in a specific group, doesn't mean there should be all these preconceived notions. It is the individual not the group. I hope I didn't get too far off on a tangent here.
Hey GCS, I think you are making too much out of the religion and morals thing. I don't think you have to have religion to have morals. I am saying that I don't know of any humanitarian organizations that put an emphasis on morals as much or more than a religous group. That is why I was asking you if you knew any, because you said that people can get the same result from being in a humanitarian organization than in a religous one.
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I define morals as trying to do the best that you can do, make the right decisions, trying to take the higher ground, and doing unto others as you would like to be done onto you.
…
Honestly, I could care less about what someone looks like, what their sexual orientation is, what they beleive or don't beleive. If you are a good person, then you are fine in my book.
…
Everyone's stances are different on things, I am sure all baptists don't see eye to eye with other baptists, catholics and other catholics, and athiests with other athiests. So just because you are put in a specific group, doesn't mean there should be all these preconceived notions. It is the individual not the group. I hope I didn't get too far off on a tangent here.
If it follows, most US citizens are Christian, so of all the people in jail, most have Christian morals.
Hey GCS, I think you are making too much out of the religion and morals thing. I don't think you have to have religion to have morals. I am saying that I don't know of any humanitarian organizations that put an emphasis on morals as much or more than a religous group. That is why I was asking you if you knew any, because you said that people can get the same result from being in a humanitarian organization than in a religous one.
I don't see what the connection is between morals and say being for / opposed to the topics you brought up: gay marriage, abortion, and the death penalty. I know different religions and people alike have very different ideals and stances on those controversial subjects.
I define morals as trying to do the best that you can do, make the right decisions, trying to take the higher ground, and doing unto others as you would like to be done onto you.
Honestly, I could care less about what someone looks like, what their sexual orientation is, what they beleive or don't beleive. If you are a good person, then you are fine in my book.
Everyone's stances are different on things, I am sure all baptists don't see eye to eye with other baptists, catholics and other catholics, and athiests with other athiests. So just because you are put in a specific group, doesn't mean there should be all these preconceived notions. It is the individual not the group. I hope I didn't get too far off on a tangent here.
That's exactly my point. You're talking about churches reinforcing moral and ethical values, but those moral and ethical values are different from church to church. If one church says it is ok to have an abortion and another church says it isn't than what moral aptitude have we actually achieved in looking at this? What church do you pick? Well, obviously the one you agree with, right?! Therefore, churches seem to only adhere to the laws that the congregation follows in order to "win" them.
Regardless, as you said, people can be moral with or without religion but I'm finding your concept that going to a church makes it easier to be moral untrue. It seems that it only reinforces the values the congregation wants enforced. Let's face it, churches shouldn't be looked at as long-standing icons of something that never changes principles.
To finish with, I'd like to quote one of my favorite quotes because I feel it rings so true to this conversation:
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg
First of all Chilegirl, I don't make a distinction between Christian and non-christian morals. I think morals are taught, not a gift, so morals are the same for beleivers and non-beleivers. So out of everyone in jail, they let their morals slip, either by mistake or intentional, it has nothing to do with them being christian or not.
And now GCS, IMO everyones morals are different. You can have two people of the same religious sect and they can have different stances on just about everything. From what is right and what is wrong, and even on controversial issues. So I do not think it is fair to just throw a blanket statement in that all people of a certain sect are all exactly the same.
And as far as your quote, I am sorry but it does not make any sense. It is impossible for a good person to do good things all the time, eventually they will have to do bad things, it's just the way it is. No one is perfect. Theoretically, an evil person has to slip once and do a good thing as well.
I am actually trying to take religion out of the moral question, but for some reason you keep wanting to throw it back in. If you truly feel that you don't need religion to have morals, why keep bringing it up?
Read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
You cannot even have the idea or notion of "morals" without the presence of a benevolent creator or GOD as we call it. Neither male nor female but Spirit.
Its a good read and should finish what we only start in these post.
Irrefutable? Sure...i could say without a doubt that all atheist and/or agnostics are so close to believing it scares the faith right out them.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How shall they hear except the Preacher be sent? thus the need for the Preached word of God to unbelievers. To bring illumination where there is ignorance. Willful or not. We wouldn't be having this discussion without the illumination brought by the spread of Gods word over the last 200 years. Word bring light. In His light we see light. As deep calls to Deep.
Peace within : Peace without
Read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
You cannot even have the idea or notion of "morals" without the presence of a benevolent creator or GOD as we call it. Neither male nor female but Spirit.
Its a good read and should finish what we only start in these post.
Irrefutable? Sure...i could say without a doubt that all atheist and/or agnostics are so close to believing it scares the faith right out them.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How shall they hear except the Preacher be sent? thus the need for the Preached word of God to unbelievers. To bring illumination where there is ignorance. Willful or not. We wouldn't be having this discussion without the illumination brought by the spread of Gods word over the last 200 years. Word bring light. In His light we see light. As deep calls to Deep.
Peace within : Peace without
You scare me; your brand of christian delusion besmirches all christians.
I am no where near believing in a sky-daddy.
I don't know what drugs you're on, but I hope that they don't urine sample where you work.
Read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
You cannot even have the idea or notion of "morals" without the presence of a benevolent creator or GOD as we call it. Neither male nor female but Spirit.
Its a good read and should finish what we only start in these post.
Irrefutable? Sure...i could say without a doubt that all atheist and/or agnostics are so close to believing it scares the faith right out them.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How shall they hear except the Preacher be sent? thus the need for the Preached word of God to unbelievers. To bring illumination where there is ignorance. Willful or not. We wouldn't be having this discussion without the illumination brought by the spread of Gods word over the last 200 years. Word bring light. In His light we see light. As deep calls to Deep.
Peace within : Peace without
I can assure you I have heard "the word", and I prefer to be rational. There is no god. There is no santa claus, tooth fairy, or easter bunny (bummer, right?) The point is...I get one shot at this, for better or worse, and I am doing my best to live my life right and to the fullest, with no regrets! There's no heaven, no hell, so I am not scared into doing the right thing. I choose to do it, because I want to be a good person, who truly cares about the world and people around me. I accept everyone for what they are and respect their beliefs, even if they are opposite from mine. I cannot for the life of me understand the god fascination, but good for you if it makes you happy.
Read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
You cannot even have the idea or notion of "morals" without the presence of a benevolent creator or GOD as we call it. Neither male nor female but Spirit.
Its a good read and should finish what we only start in these post.
Irrefutable? Sure...i could say without a doubt that all atheist and/or agnostics are so close to believing it scares the faith right out them.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How shall they hear except the Preacher be sent? thus the need for the Preached word of God to unbelievers. To bring illumination where there is ignorance. Willful or not. We wouldn't be having this discussion without the illumination brought by the spread of Gods word over the last 200 years. Word bring light. In His light we see light. As deep calls to Deep.
Peace within : Peace without
That just might be one of the craziest things I've ever read on CD. I can assure you that I hear no God speaking to me. No voice or anything. And I AM moral.
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Christian morals - jail population
