Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The point is that according to the dictionary you must give up something of value. The counter arguement has been what of value did he give up. That is where the difference occurs. No one argued that the dictionary is wrong but that they do not see his death as any scarifice on his part as he knew he was only on Earth for the purpose of dying and returning to where he came from.
What mistake was made? It is purely a difference of opinions of whether dying when you were always alive and will never die is an actual sarifice or not.
I understand that is the sticky point badlander. However within the parameters of the story Jesus gave up something in order to gain something better, and that is the meaning of sacrifice. We can all have our opinions about whether or not it was a real sacrifice or not, but you cannot place your own opinion of a sacrifice ahead of what the story actually states. There making their argument from their opinions and I am trying to get them to stick with the FACTS recorded in the story and the definition provided in the dictionary.
I don't care if their opinion differs from mine, but I do care when someone states the story does not show a sacrifice. For the story without people putting in their own opinion surely does show forth a sacrifice.
and there is the catch SB, in your opinion ( and I have no problem with you having your own opinion) the story does not = a sacrifice. Can you not see you are still making your argument based on your opinion and not what the story actually portrays? Now if you were to say in your opinion (if you did and I missed it my apologies) the story does not show a sacrifice I can live with that as it is your opinion and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However that is not what I have seen in this thread what I have seen is people using their opinions to say the story does not represent a sacrifice. Yet within the parameters of the story it is quite clear that Jesus gave up something to gain something greater and that is the dictionaries definition of a sacrifice.
You can't see the difference, and that is fine. If I look at the story and see no sacrifice, how is that any different than you seeing a sacrifice? It is both opinion. Yours is no more valid than mine, and mine no more valid than yours. I have said previously that the only way to determine whether it meets the criteria, is to look at the story and make a judgment on whether it does. The only thing you are arguing at this point is wording. Either way it is your opinion that is was a sacrifice, and my opinion that nothing of value was given up, within the parameters of the story.
You still aren't quite grasping this. The definition is the definition. There is only opinion as to whether something meets the requirements of the definition. To you, the story meets the definition, to me and several others, it doesn't. This has nothing to do with the merits of the story. This has to do with how one interprets the study. Just because you think your version is right, doesn't mean everyone interprets it the same way. Myself and Nozz interpret it different than you. This is the only way to determine whether it meets the criteria.
No that is not what I am talking about SB read my reply to badlander. The story in and of itself shows a sacrifice according to the dictionaries definition of sacrifice. We can all argue whether the sacrifice is a real sacrifice or not but then we go out of the parameters of the story and make argument based on our own opinions.
I bet many Christians are unaware that the Bible says that both disobedient children and homosexuals should be killed:
Leviticus 30:13: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
Deuteronomy 21: "18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.†21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."
Look at what life was like on earth when the bible was written. It was obviously formed in a much different context than we live our lives today.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." Marcus Aurelius
That is not the god of the Bible, IMHO. You can't go wrong if everything is based on love, and it is a good thought, but I just don't buy it. A god of love would not have done the things it is said he has done. A god of love wouldn't allow suffering on this scale. This is just my opinion of course, but if there were a god of love and he is powerful enough to create worlds, then surely he could have stopped Hitler. Surely he would make the arid areas where people are starving to death able to bear fruit. There are many reasons why I find that flawed. If there is a god, he is surely one of indifference.
Good quote by Marcus, couldn't agree more.
Ya that is the thing most people try to understand and I don't have an answer for you other then God gave mankind dominion of this world and mankind has screwed it up royally. However one day according to the scriptures all the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of Christ and then everything will be made right.
Many Christian hold to the belief that God is in control of this world, however Jesus taught us to pray thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Which tells me Gods will is not yet being done on this earth, mans will is that which hold dominion here.
People like to blame God for all the crap in the world, tis time they actually started to look in the mirror. IMHO
You can't see the difference, and that is fine. If I look at the story and see no sacrifice, how is that any different than you seeing a sacrifice? It is both opinion. Yours is no more valid than mine, and mine no more valid than yours. I have said previously that the only way to determine whether it meets the criteria, is to look at the story and make a judgment on whether it does. The only thing you are arguing at this point is wording. Either way it is your opinion that is was a sacrifice, and my opinion that nothing of value was given up, within the parameters of the story.
SB within the parameters of the story it actually says Jesus made a sacrifice, we can debate all day whether it was a real sacrifice but you cannot say there was no sacrifice recorded within the parameters of the story.
Thus mine is not opinion, mine is stating that which is actually recorded in the story.
SB within the parameters of the story it actually says Jesus made a sacrifice, we can debate all day whether it was a real sacrifice but you cannot say there was no sacrifice recorded within the parameters of the story.
Thus mine is not opinion, mine is stating that which is actually recorded in the story.
You still aren't understanding here pneuma. If all you want to do is say, "The story says it was a sacrifice so therefore it was a sacrifice", then what are we talking about? You aren't really interested if there was a sacrifice or not, you are only interested in whether or not the story SAID there was. There is no point in taking it any further if that is all you are wanting to do.
Ya that is the thing most people try to understand and I don't have an answer for you other then God gave mankind dominion of this world and mankind has screwed it up royally. However one day according to the scriptures all the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of Christ and then everything will be made right.
Many Christian hold to the belief that God is in control of this world, however Jesus taught us to pray thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Which tells me Gods will is not yet being done on this earth, mans will is that which hold dominion here.
People like to blame God for all the crap in the world, tis time they actually started to look in the mirror. IMHO
This being in that book where a lot of it is false, but not the parts you agree with? If all God did was drop us here and say, "See you guys in a few millennia!" Then he is not a god of love, but a god of indifference, as he doesn't really care to know what is going on, or to help in any measurable way.
The Bible is barbaric because what... there is violence contained in it?
Have you seen or read the news lately? Beheadings... children murdering parents... rapes... wars... why are the contents in the Bible singled out as though we exist in an environment of Leave to Beaver?
The Bible is a book. Some people are barbaric. Always have been... always will be.
The Bible is barbaric because what... there is violence contained in it?
Have you seen or read the news lately? Beheadings... children murdering parents... rapes... wars... why are the contents in the Bible singled out as though we exist in an environment of Leave to Beaver?
The Bible is a book. Some people are barbaric. Always have been... always will be.
The violence therein is often perpetrated by the God Christians worship. That's the issue.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
